Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[jhelgesen]

Originally Posted by BlueSideUp

I found Valvoline 20W50 VR1 Racing oil on the shelf the other day. Here's what their website has to say about it.

VR1 Racing Motor Oil's exclusive chemistry is designed to reduce friction and enhance power. It is among the most popular engine lubricants in all types of racing including CART, stock car and drag racing. It is recommended for engines burning gasoline and full or partial alcohol fuels in track and street service.

* High performance and protection for today's engines that run at high RPM
* New ashless anti-wear additives combined with ZDDP provide ultimate wear protection
* Enhanced anti-foam system helps protect the engine even during extreme stress
* Enhanced additives protect against high-temperature deposits for a cleaner engine
* Friction modifiers help improve horsepower output


That screams boron based anti-wear additive with lowered ZDDP levels IMHO. I guess it's VR1 not-street-legal from now on :-) Granted, the non-street legal has about half the detergency, so you can't go very long without an oil change, say no more than 3000 mi with it!

I've been running VR-1 in my track only engine since I built it. Typically run 2 track weekends between changes.

cnavarro, car you saying I should be okay, or do I need to put in the additives?

TIA

[cnavarro]

John, why not run the non-street legal VR-1 in your race car instead? I really do like VR-1 in general, as it's very well formulated with a high HTHS shear viscosity and very high flash point. I'd boost the Zn and P in regular VR-1 API SM unless someone has a VOA for the new formulation or is willing to share their findings. I'm just about tapped out when it comes to doing VOAs after spending about $4k over the last year between Staveley and Blackstone. I'm now focusing on trying to do more "physical" testing in a cam spintron between oils supplemented with Zn and P from various products and oils that we know already work, like the Brad Penn, Swepco, and various other oils.

[jhelgesen]

Guess I don't know the dif between the regular and the non street. I've been getting VR-1 20-50 racing oil from the local pepboys/autozone/advance auto, just because thats what I could get while living in BFE NC.

If its different stuff, I'll see if I can find it here in Charlotte.

[cnavarro]

The bottle stays "not-street-legal" on it, if it's the good stuff. Totally different product from the stuff sold at Autozone.

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=94

From what it says on their site, you can order it at Napa. They also make a fully synthetic version of the same product, which I did do a VOA on and it's identical to the non-synthetic in every way. The detergents are about 50% that of what I would say a conventional street oil is, say the normal VR-1, so for your daily driver with longer drain intervals, this would not be the oil to use unless you change your oil very often.

[jhelgesen]

Gotcha...

this is what I've been running....

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=50

I'll pay my local napa a visit.

Thanks.....

[rfuerst911sc]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

John, why not run the non-street legal VR-1 in your race car instead? I really do like VR-1 in general, as it's very well formulated with a high HTHS shear viscosity and very high flash point. I'd boost the Zn and P in regular VR-1 API SM unless someone has a VOA for the new formulation or is willing to share their findings. I'm just about tapped out when it comes to doing VOAs after spending about $4k over the last year between Staveley and Blackstone. I'm now focusing on trying to do more "physical" testing in a cam spintron between oils supplemented with Zn and P from various products and oils that we know already work, like the Brad Penn, Swepco, and various other oils.

Charles in your opinion can the "not street legal" version of VR1 be used on the street with 3000-4000 mile drain intervals? I have a NAPA close to me and I'm almost out of the good Rotella T so I'm looking for a replacement. I have found a Brad Penn distributor about 1 1/2 hours away but the VR1 would be more conveniant. I appreciate any advice you can give. Thanks

[cnavarro]

I'll let you know on the VR-1 non-street-legal. I currently running it in my 911 just to see how quickly the detergent actually gets used up, since I had the exact same question myself. I'll switch back to either Swepco 306 or Brad Penn once I get enough time/miles (which will be very shortly) on the oil.

I was told somewhere that they didn't recommend more than 1000 mi, but figuring we have somewhere near three times the capacity, that 3000 mi would be a good starting point. I'd most definately defer to used oil analysis to be 100% sure.

[squelch]

Rookie 911 owner here preparing for my first oil change. I have read all of the data you guys are putting out, and understand most, but a little confused on some. Today I went to all of my local retailers to find a supplier for oil. Here is what I found. Please help me chose the best oil for my new baby.

Thanks,
Chuck

NAPA
NAPA Synthetic 15w50: "Meets or exceeds SL/SJ API Service SL". No indications of SM or CJ-4. Guy at counter said it was made by Valvoline. $4.79/qt.

Valvoline 20w50 SynPower: "Exceeds SL/SJ, CF/DC, ACEA Service A3/B3/B4" $6/qt.

Valvoline VR1 20w50 for street use: "Exceeds SM/SL/CD" $4.49/qt.

Royal Purple 15w40: "CF-4, CG-4, CH-4, CI-4, SL" $7.49/qt.

Royal Purple Max Cycle 20w50: $4.39/qt.

Rotella T 15w40: "CJ-4/SM" $2.89/qt

Wal-Mart
Wal-mart had a Mobile 1 5w40 Diesel Truck oil that "...Meets CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4 and CF." I don't know the difference between diesel and gas engine oils. Here's a link

Local Motocycle Shop
Mobile 1 V-Twin Oil: $12/qt.

[cnavarro]

If they had the royal purple max cycle 20w50 that cheap, that would be must first choice. It's a great oil, right up there with the Mobil 1 V-Twin.

[squelch]

Charles,
Would you mind giving me a little more input on some of the others? Maybe a second and third choice and why. They only had one quart of the RP max cycle, and I failed to ask if they always keep it in stock. Also, if that price sounds low, it may be a mistake. The guy behind the counter was giving me prices off the top of his head.
Any thoughts on the Napa Brand Synthetic or the Mobile 1 Diesel oil? What about the Valveoline VR1?

Thanks,
Chuck

[cnavarro]

If you must buy oil locally, I would then probably go with the Royal Purple 15w40.

I tested the Valvoline synpower 20w50 in march and it was in the 600 ppm range for Zn and P. That is most unacceptable. I wouldn't run any of the other oils either.

Napa can get the VR-1 non-street-legal too, which probably isn't on the shelf. I had a call this afternoon from a seasoned engine builder who was running VR-1 (the normal one) and had a cam failure with the new *reformulated* version. So if running VR-1, make sure it's the non-street-legal version.

[dtw]

I'd like to run the Brad Penn products. Where are y'all buying them - whether FLAPS or mail-order?

[Brent Lineker]

I have been using m-1 15-50,is 6000 mile intervals too long.Thanks..

[rfuerst911sc]

Originally Posted by dtw

I'd like to run the Brad Penn products. Where are y'all buying them - whether FLAPS or mail-order?

Do a search for Brad Penn oil, once on their website send them a email with your location and they will respond with the closest distributor to you. That's what I did and found a distributor 1 1/2 hours away. I haven't ordered any yet but need to soon.

[donstevens]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I'll let you know on the VR-1 non-street-legal. I currently running it in my 911 just to see how quickly the detergent actually gets used up, since I had the exact same question myself. I'll switch back to either Swepco 306 or Brad Penn once I get enough time/miles (which will be very shortly) on the oil.

I was told somewhere that they didn't recommend more than 1000 mi, but figuring we have somewhere near three times the capacity, that 3000 mi would be a good starting point. I'd most definately defer to used oil analysis to be 100% sure.

Guys,

Charles comment above regarding used oil analysis to verify the above theories is right on. I'd be very wery weary of dumping in the "ZDDP 500" or the "Comp cam" stuff under blind faith without verifying the results with UOA. While theoretically the stuff should not do any harm but in many cases off the shelf additives can serve to quickly deplete other detergent/dispersant/ anti-oxidant additves that your engine needs. For the same $20 that you spend on the additive, spend another $20 to test the final brew after you put some miles on it.

Secondly, why not just buy the oils on the list? They are proven winners.

Don

[chrisp]

charles, did you ever test the M1 5-40? It's SL rated and in what I believe to be the right weight for our cars.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I'm going to show this thread to LubeMaster - I'm sure he can weigh in on this subject.

Great topic, BTW. Also new to 911s and want to have my first oil change be the best for the car it can be. I'm sure older cars (mine is a '74) probably have different needs than the modern alloy construction most oils are probably targeted towards in today's production cars.

How can an oil be "not street legal"? I've never heard of such a thing. Does it have plutonium in it or something?

[chrisp]

Sorry Charles, I meant to ask if M1 High Mileage 10-40 has been evaluated.

[chrisp]

non-street legal usually means that it eats catalytic converters or the detergent mix creates not so friendly emissions. It's also often the difference between a motorcycle and automotive oil. The two-wheelers don't have the same emissions requirements as cars.

[cnavarro]

The m1 high mileage 10w40 has ~600-800 ppm Zn and P. No good.

"not-street-legal" is a marketing ploy :-) Basically, it has higher Zn and P with less detergents, so it's not good for long drain intervals.