Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[richardlw]

He said they are developing a 15-40W formula for the air-cooled and water cooled Porsche's and it should be out in a few months.

If you can design a 5W-40 with just as good or better HTHS than a 15W-40, and there are already many on the market with CI-4 levels, why a 15W-40? Even truckers are moving off the 15W-40 for startup protection.

So what would you suggest for a flat tappet i4 turbo race motor with dry sump in the heat of Australian conditions. Note, it's not always 100f+ down here...but in general it's going to be warmer than other parts of the world. In most cases this motor is used in short sprint events. ie hard for 3-5 laps.

That probably fits into what I use my 5W-50 CI-4 in racing. We don't have any air cooled cars here in the races, but I typically see 120C oil temperatures, once 150C when the radiator got clogged by the car in front running through the mud.

[lupin..the..3rd]

Originally Posted by richardlw

I would almost never put 20W-50 a car. Maybe for a track event. I also put it in well worn taxi engines that come in and need to be repaired but the owners want to squeeze another year out of them. It just does not pump fast enough on start up. Count on several seconds of dry wear in the bearings and valves on each startup. I've tested that.

agree with this statement completely. 20w-50 is just too thick.

[bkreigsr]

Originally Posted by GothingNC

Just met Richard Glady (VP of BP oils)

BP as in Brad-Penn or British Petroleum?

[GothingNC]

Originally Posted by bkreigsr

BP as in Brad-Penn or British Petroleum?

He is with Brad Penn.

I may be mistaken about the new oil formulation if it was 15-40 or 5-40 they are developing.

He said it is geared to the water-cooled models per request by Charles Navarro and Jake Raby.

[db_cooper]

I think they must be working on a 5w40..(my favorite flavor). Brad Penn already has a 15w40

BRAD PENN® PENN-GRADE 1®
Partial Synthetic SAE 15W-40 High Performance Oil

A multi-viscosity option for engines exposed to higher temperatures and mixed ambient conditions. The Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® Partial Synthetic SAE 15W-40 High Performance Oil possesses excellent film strength and proven additive chemistry to provide required performance in a wide range of operating situations

[Helios59]

Since this thread is Oil Central, I thought I'd throw this in:

I've seen articles in Excellence and Panorama saying Porsche now approves Mobil 1 OW-40 for all 911s built after 1984.

Does anyone with an air-cooled 911 use this weight? I'm just about to do my cold weather fill.

BTW, I apologize in advance if this was covered already...I haven't gone back through all 86 pages.

[lev16gt]

I have read the first few pages, all pages from the past year and all the links within those pages...my head hurts! Thank you for all the great information, but I have some questions.

- I feel like I'm missing something regarding ZDDP vs. catalytic converters. I have an '84 with a cat (the po was in a state that requires such a thing). From sifting through the maintenance records, it looks like the car has always had either Castrol or Valvoline 20w-50. However, I can get BP locally for a reasonable price, so I was all set to buy a case tomorrow. Now, I'm not so sure because of using it with a cat. I can't imagine that everyone in here that's using BP is running a test pipe?...or, is it suitable for use with a cat as well (which is contrary to the "disclaimer")?

- The car has spent most its life in AZ and NM, recently a short period of time in CO, and now it's in OH with me. Once the first snow (SALT) hits the ground, the car will be locked in the garage. Most of the driving will be between 40-90*F with occasional 10* below and above that range. 20w-50 seems a bit thick for my needs, so I was thinking 15w-40, but after reading this thread (again, not all of it) and then Richards paper, I'm all kinds of confused. Also, why is 20w-50 the only BP mentioned?...something wrong with BP 15w-40?

- I have only had the car for two weeks, but I drove it home to Ohio from Denver, CO, so it has some miles on it. With the trip and driving it since I've been home, I've put about 1500 miles on it. Instead of trying to top off the oil without knowing what's in it, I'd rather just change it.

I would like to change the oil tomorrow (Friday) evening, so any input would be greatly appreciated! I apologize for all the questions

[Eagledriver]

There is no problem running any oil with a Cat. Eventually an oil with high ZDDP will cause the Cat to become ineffective. You would need to run many years to have a problem, and even then you probably don't care if your cat works.

-Andy

[winders]

Originally Posted by Eagledriver

...even then you probably don't care if your cat works.

He does if he has to pass smog....

Scott

[bkreigsr]

Originally Posted by Eagledriver

There is no problem running any oil with a Cat. Eventually an oil with high ZDDP will cause the Cat to become ineffective.-Andy

that sounds somewhat contradictory

Not to worry though, by the time the cat succumbs, the car will probably be eligible for the states 'historic' or 'collector' status and he can remove the cat.

lev.. does bring up a legitimate point. How much ZDDP actually gets burnt up in the combustion process and how much passes through to the exhaust without getting destroyed? The already low percentage of content suggest it would never be a concern, but is it? Bill K

[richardlw]

How much ZDDP actually gets burnt up in the combustion process and how much passes through to the exhaust without getting destroyed? The already low percentage of content suggest it would never be a concern, but is it? Bill K

The problem is the phosphorous in the ZDDP. The better compounds actually present little if any problem. The cheaper compounds evaporate rapidly, reducing anti-wear protection and contaminating catalytic converters. The studies for the SN gasoline oils discovered that. I have a few graphs that show the differences and tests.

But to my knowledge, no CI-4 or CJ-4 oil maker is making claims as to phosphorous retention. I have to assume the better ones (read more expensive) probably use better additive packs with less evaporation. The cheap stuff uses cheap ingredients. But that is an assumption on my part. You could do oil analysis or check the virgin vs used analysis on different sites to get an idea.

I would think that now that this retention/evaporation has been discovered, the next generation of diesel oils may require tests for it.

[GothingNC]

Vette owners are going throught he same thing with the oils

List of Flat-Tappet Oils - Corvette Forum

The sections below in order are:
List of oils that claim > 1,000 PPM ZDDP and/or flat-tappet cam support in alphabetical order
List of break-in oil and break-in additives
Technical background, references and resources
Oil List
AMSOIL Synthetic Premium Protection Available via Forum Vendor C66 Racing LLC; PM 'Subdriver' for more information
Grades: 10W40 (AMO), 20W50 (ARO), 5W20 (HDD), 20W-50 (TRO)
Claim: "It is ideal for high-mileage vehicles, vehicles with flat-tappet cams and high-stress vehicles subject to hot temperatures, heavy hauling, trailer pulling or off-road use."
Verification: ~1265 PPM: https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/techse...t%20Tappet.pdf


AMSOIL Z-ROD Synthetic Available via Forum Vendor C66 Racing LLC; PM 'Subdriver' for more information
Grades: 10W30, 20W50
Claim: "AMSOIL Z-ROD Synthetic Motor Oil is formulated with high levels of ZDDP to protect flat-tappet cams, lifters, rockers and other areas susceptible to wear. Its high-zinc, high-phosphorus formulation provides the extra wear protection these critical splash-lubricated components require."
Verification: None; "meets API SL (1,000 ppm ZDDP) and earlier (> 1,000 ppm ZDDP) specifications"

Brad Penn
Grades: 0W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40 , 15W-40, 20W-50
Claim: In addition to our unique base oil cut, increased concentration of “zinc” (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate a.k.a. ZDDP) provides outstanding anti-wear/anti-scuffing protection for engines employing either ‘flat tappet’ or roller cams. BRAD PENN® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils have been evaluated by a number of premiere camshaft manufacturers with tremendous success. Many are now recommending our Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils to provide outstanding protection for their ‘flat tappet’ or roller cams.
Verification: Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

Castrol Syntec 20W-50
Grades: 20W50
Claim: "Engineered to increase wear protection for classic cars with flat tappet camshafts"
Verification: Email from Castrol 12/9/09: Current Syntec 20W-50 (for classic cars) is actually a modern premium quality API SM product that has been Zinc boosted to Zinc levels that are reminiscent of levels from historic API categories such as SG when flat tappet cams with high spring loads were common in the fleet. For reference, note that the API SM category has the most rigorous passenger car engine oil (PCO) test performance requirements in the history of the API PCO categories. The level of Zinc in the new Syntec 20W-50 is a minimum of 1200 ppm, which will provide excellent anti-wear protection for the cam and lifters in a flat-tappet cam engine.

Collector's Choice Motor Oil
Grades: 20W50
Claim: Read verification sheet below
Verification: 2000 PPM claimed: http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/p...0-815_INST.pdf

CompCams Muscle Car & Street Rod Oil
Grades: 10W30, 15W50
Claim: optimum amounts of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphorous) provide unmatched anti-wear properties. available in both 10W30 and 15W50 formulas and is perfect for late model or classic engines with flat tappet valve trains.
Verification: NONE CompCams Tech Line refused to provide any details on ZDDP levels and the MSDS provides no details. The tech would go so far as to say it has "more than" 1,400 PPM ZDDP.

Joe Gibbs Hot Rod Oil
Grades: 10W30, 15W50 in both conventional (HR-1/HR-2) and synthetic (HR-3/HR-4).
Claim: Higher levels of Zinc (ZDP) than regular passenger car oils. Delivers proper anti-wear protection for older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines.
Verification: ~1270 PPM ZDDP http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/dat...0DataSheet.doc

Mobile 1 15W-50
Grades: 15W50
Claim: "Mobil 1 15W-50 is also recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required for newer generation vehicles."
Verification: http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...duct_guide.pdf
It still remains unclear to me how Mobile 1 can claim API SM/SN compliance when the oil is exempt by grade and far exceeds the maximum ppm ZDDP allowed.

Red Line Synthetic Motor Oil
I made the decision to remove Red Line oils from the list as they make no claims regarding flat-tappet cam support on their website and I'm awaiting confirmation from them via email regarding their ZDDP levels.

Royal Purple RP
Grades: 10W40, 15W40, 20W50
Claim: "For stock or mildly modified flat tappet valve trains (<.525” lift), we recommend our SAE 10W40, 15W40 or 20W50 engine oils."
Verification: NONE

Royal Purple HPS High Performance Street Motor Oil
Grades: 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40 and 20W-50.
Claim: It is fortified with a high level of zinc/phosphorus anti-wear additive... Protects valve trains using roller or flat tappet lifters requiring added protection due to high lift/ high ramp rate camshafts
Verification: NONE

Royal Purple XPR
Grades:0W10, 5W20, 5W30, 10W40, 20W50
Claim: "In applications with flat tappet valve trains using high-lift cams and/or high RPM applications, we strongly recommend upgrading to our XPR line of engine oils as these have an even greater concentration of ZDDP providing excellent protection with the higher spring pressures."
Verification:NONE

Valvoline VR1
Grades: 20W50, 10W30
Claim: "High zinc/phosphorus provides extreme wear protection, including flat tappet applications."
Verification: 1300 - 1400 PPM ZDDP http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf
NOTE that there are some concerns with VR1 due to inconsistent test results.

Valvoline Specialty Racing Oil ("Not Street Legal")
Grades: 20W50
Claim: "High zinc/phosphorus provides extreme wear protection, including flat tappet applications."
Verification: 1300 - 1400 PPM ZDDP
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Specialty_Synthetic_Racing_Oils.pdf


Valvoline Roush Full Synthetic
Grades: 5W30, 5W50, 10W30, 10W40
Claim: "Provide longer lasting zinc/phosphorus anti-wear."
Verification: NONE

Valvoline Racing Synthetic
Grades: 20W50, 10W30
Claim: "High zinc/phosphorus for extreme anti-wear, including flat tappets."
Verification: NONE

Engine Break-In Oils/Additives
Brad Penn Break-in Oil
"The Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 Break-In oil is designed specifically with a lower level of ZDDP and other select additive components as a Break-In oil. Since break in is a wearing process high levels of an anti-wear additive may be counterproductive. The type of ZDDP used in this oil is also more suitable for break in applications." Taken from the Brad Penn website; the concept of less ZDDP for initial break-in is counter to offerings by other vendors and cam vendor guidance. Evaluate for yourself.

CompCams Break-in Oil
Joe Gibbs Break-in Oil
Royal Purple Break-In Oil
GM Engine Oil Suppliment (EOS)

Technical Background
ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate, "zinc" or "zink") is an anti-wear oil additive that contains roughly equal amounts of zinc (Zn) and phosphorus (P) and is particuarly critical for correct lubrication of flat-tappet camshafts. The amount of ZDDP has decreased over time with the broad adoption of roller-tappet cams and the negative impact ZDDP has on catalytic converters.

Standards for engine oil are set by the American Petroleum Institute (API) and the International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC). Prior to 1988 API SF specified a minimum of 1500 PPM P. In 1993 API SG reduced reduced the minimum to 1200 PPM, and it was reduced again to 1000 PPM with the SL specification. A broad wave of flat-tappet camshaft failures started in 2004 following introduction of API SM and ILSAC GF-4 oil specifications which set a maximum of 800 PPM and a minimum of 600 PPM P for grades SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30. Initially blamed on poor cam quality control, it was quickly determined that it was in fact the reduction of ZDDP combined with more agressive cam profiles and associated higher spring loads that were the root cause. Testing that showed the new oils would still have acceptable ZDDP for flat-tappet cams was done with very mild cam profiles and very low spring pressures. This is not what is found in even a mild performance engine, but may work - or at least appear to work - in older stock-type engines that don't see hard driving, have mild cams and tired valve springs or just see very few road miles - hence the perspective for some that ZDDP levels are not a genuine issue. Each needs to assess the risks and costs and determine their best choice. Note that as an additive, ZDDP loses potency over time, losing approximately 1/2 of it's effectivness at approximately 6,000 miles. The latest API SN and ILSAC GF-5 specifications do not change the maximum/minimum ppm ZDDP.

API/ILSAC Oil Specifications

[lev16gt]

Originally Posted by winders

He does if he has to pass smog....

Scott

Ohio no longer requires smog/emissions testing, so no, I don't care about the cat and will most likely be replacing it with a test pipe later. I just wasn't sure if it would have a more immediate effect...sounds like not. One issue down; I'll be heading to the Brad Penn dealer at lunch to pick up a case of Pennsylvania's finest!

Anyone used BP 15w-40?

Thanks!

[chuckr]

I just put in the winter oil, Brad Penn 15W/40
I use the BP 20W/50 for summer. Here in North Louisiana it gets 100 degrees a good bit during the summer and I've always run 20/50 in my fairly low mileage rebuilt motor, maybe 15,000 miles on the motor. Do I really need the 20/50 ? I'm kinda liken the 15/40. Maybe its just me,but I swear my cars runs better, it is just a little cooler outside now and my car does love the cooler weather,but I think it does run better with the 15/40.

[ibtisam.jawad]

Would this one be any good in an 1984 944 NA?

| O'Reilly Auto Parts

[db_cooper]

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/kendall/automotive_engine_oils/Ken%20GT-1%20High%20Performance%20MO%20%28Ti%29%20TDS%20Web .pdf


Kendall GT-1 High Performance with Liquid Titanium SAE 20W-50 Oil is does not have a big Zinc number...850ppm.

I have no clue as to what the 100ppm of titanium might do..

Use Brad Penn or any good HDEO...

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by ibtisam.jawad

Would this one be any good in an 1984 944 NA?

| O'Reilly Auto Parts

Can't say for sure.

Some things to consider:

1-Detergents-Many "race oils" do not have sufficient detergents for street use. The detergents are used to keep the "crud" suspended inhte oils so it can be removed at oil change time. Racers do not like detergents because they can cause foaming (a bad thing) at high RPMs. The lack of detergent action in a true race car is not a big deal, since the oil gets changed after every race anyway.

Bottom line, you your car is street drivena nd has "normal" oil change intervals, you want a decent detergent package.

2-High ZDDP-If your car has flat tappents, you need ZDDP to protect the high pressure wear areas like your cam lobes. Does your car have roller tappets? If so then you may be ok with lower ZDDP.

Anyway, let us know what you decided and why.

[winders]

Originally Posted by HarryD

...since the oil gets changed after every race anyway.

Not when you use a high dollar synthetic oil and your race car has a dry sump system that holds 5 gallons of oil....

Scott

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by winders

Not when you use a high dollar synthetic oil and your race car has a dry sump system that holds 5 gallons of oil....

Scott

OK Scott, I'll bite. Lack of deterents in "true" race oils means that deposits collected in the oil will plate on on engine surfaces and this is typically a bad thing.

Since you do not want an oil related failure during a race, how DO you determine when to change the oil?

Do you use a "race" oil with adequate detergents; or
Bet "on the come" things will be ok; or
Perform testing; or
???

Inquiring minds want to know.

[ibtisam.jawad]

So, if I could add something like GM EOS to the oil that would make it work right? Or how about the Mobil 1 10W-40 Racing 4T. Are there detergent additives as well?

Brad Penn is way to expensive for me to be honest.