Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[livi]

Originally Posted by clesch

Since I can’t source Brad Penn Oil here in Europe without paying absurd amounts for shipping, I’ve been looking for alternatives with a proven high amount of ZDDP.

The closest thing I’ve found so far is Castrol Classic XL 20W-50, which appears to be what Porsche in Stuttgart uses for their completed restorations.





all according to the Datasheet.

It may not be ideal but it is better than most of the oils I can get around here.

Does somebody know where I can get a sample of this oil analyzed in Europe? I’ve already bought a few cans of it and plan to use it for my next oil change, it would be nice to know what the actual ZDDP percentage is.

I have easy access to this oil in Sweden too. Would also be interested in what the brain trust of Pelican think of it.

[db_cooper]

The Castrol Classic XL 20w50 according to the data sheet only has 800ppm of zinc and no phosphorus. It has a big dose of calcium 1300ppm..which is a detergent.

I would be surprised if the Porsche factory used it...it looks like it is not a very robust oil. Maybe if the engine is rarely run..going in and out of the museum.

I do know the Porsche factory back in the "Shell" days used Rotella T as a factory fill. If your car had a "Shell" sticker on it when new..you had HDEO oil in it, from Porsche.

I would suggest using Rotella or whatever good over the road truck oil (HDEO or heavy duty engine oil) is available. Brad Penn is good..if you can get it locally or delivered.

You can do some research on HDEO oil at Bob Is The Oil Guy - Forums powered by UBB.threads™

I use 20w50 Brad Penn in my old Laverda motorcycle (factory spec 20w50)..and Rotella T in my 911. Rotella has worked well with NO lubrication failures or issues in the 911 for 25 years. I use synthetic Rotella T 5w40 year round these days. In the "old days" it was Rotella 15w40 which is good for use from -15*c/0*f and up.



Here is a virgin oil analysis of the 5w40 Rotella... big additive package with 1264ppm of zinc and 1147ppm of phosphorus.

[richardlw]

In Europe Castrol has a 5W-50 racing oil that looks real good on paper. Not available in the US, but I know of a bunch of people using it in Dubai.

[M.D. Holloway]

Sad to say but most all the major oil blenders are using the same CJ-4 add pack now offered by either from Lubrazol or Infinium. The major difference comes down to the base oil selection.

[bsimonson]

Originally Posted by livi

I have easy access to this oil in Sweden too. Would also be interested in what the brain trust of Pelican think of it.

Markus, last year I did a survey of the Swedish market and was in contact with a few different suppliers of oil. What I found was that Agrol has at least two oils that are suitable for our cars, the "Classic 15W-40" or the "Super Syntet 5W-40" (if you don't have a cat). They also have an oil that is Porsche certified, the Spectra, but I have not seen any detailed data on that. You could probably mail Agrol if you are interested, they where very helpful when I contacted them.

BG, Björn

PS, if you want to I can PM you the data for the two oils I mentioned.

[lvporschepilot]

What's the deal with Mobil 1's new 0W-50 'racing' oil. It's terribly pricey yet their website specifically advises it is formulated for flat tappet engines and the like. HTHS is listes as 4.1 for their 0W-50 and it seems to definitely be at the lower end of the 50w scale with cST @ 100C being 17.2. VI is high at 189. Otherwise I have heard little to nothing regarding this attractive yet pricey synt oil.

[MichaelN]

Interesting stuff. Mobil doesn't recommend for street use (IF you have a cat, presumably because of the levels of zinc at 1850 ppm). Check out the FAQ on their website.


Mobil 1 Racing Oil FAQs

[richardlw]

Check the detergent. Most racing oils (exceptions like Brad Penn and others) have very little detergent. That leaves more room for the polar antiwear additives to do their work, but ends up building sludge. Formulation tests are in my signature link.

[iamtheari]

This is a topic that I haven't seen discussed in depth by you lucky folks who live in temperate regions. I live in a cold climate. Well, a varied climate. Our record high is 121F and our record low is -60F, set four months apart in the same year at towns not far apart with an elevation difference of 72 feet. In other words, there is probably no single multiweight oil that will work year-round for me. Even if it's safe to change from synthetic to mineral and back, doing it twice a year may or may not be safe for all I have read in trying to figure this out. So I am aiming to find at least a family of similar oils to run in my 1990 air-cooled 3.6 year-round instead of, say, Mobil 1 0W-40 in the winter and Brad Penn 20W-50 in the summer.

The old Porsche recommendations are apparently 5W-20 for my winter temperatures and 20W-50 or 15W-40 for my summer temperatures. Mr. Navarro's information at Oils: What motor oil should I use? Which oil is best for my Porsche or aircooled engine? suggests Brad Penn 20W-50 or, for colder service, 10W-40. I found a Brad Penn dealer semi-locally (100 miles away and I'll be there in 2 weeks for other reasons so I could pick some up while I'm there) and am thinking about going that route instead of the local common wisdom of running Mobil 1 full synthetic in everything year-round. (I normally run BMW-branded synthetic in my R1100RS (open to change that as I learn more from the 911's eating habits) but my truck and probably all of my family members' vehicles get Mobil 1.)

Brad Penn sells 0W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40, 15W-40, and 20W-50 multiweight oils as far as I can tell. If the temperatures your car would be started in on your next oil change will vary from -30F to 50F, which of these, if any, would you run? Is there another oil you would recommend in my car that is good in that temperature range and can be replaced with a roughly similar oil (i.e., full synthetic for full synthetic, full mineral for full mineral, or partial synthetic for partial synthetic) in the months when the temperature normally ranges from 40F to 100F?

[RichardM912]

Not sure if this is allowed under the posting rules. I have just had a book published on selecting lubes for your classic car. If interested, Google "Which Oil? Richard Michell". Available from many sources (hopefully!). Amongst other things, I give a method for choosing viscosity grade for any given geographic locality. That being said, my advice would be follow the Porsche recommendation.

On another matter, I note that many posters are recommending using Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oils because of their higher zinc/phosphorus levels. It has presumably been canvassed, but these oils do not necessarily use the same chemical composition of zinc dithiophosphate as is used in gasoline engine oils. It is certainly not as simple as the zinc/phosphorus % content. The exact nature of the molecule(s) used is important.

In deciding to write a book on the choice of oil I did first contemplate a less controversial subject such as global warming or the meaning of life but eventually decided "What the heck - go for the big one!".

[HarryD]

iamtherari:

While my expertise is severly lacking, I will attempt to answer you question with my thoughts.

The Porsche manual shows a need for a 5W oil for starting in very cold climates. As the ambient temperstures rise, a thicker cold weight is acceptable. When the '84 manual was written, the extreme viscosity range oils (0W-xx or 5w-xx with xx being 40 or 50) were not commonly available nor trusted. There now appear to be good formulations (in the synthetic oils) for these extreme ranges. Once you satisfy yourself you have one with adequate high pressure wear additives (1200+ ppm ZDDP or the like) and a decent detergent package, you should be good to go. I would check out some the "botique" oil offerings to see if you can find something suitable.

Now I warn you, that I am suggesting you experiment on your car. Since I will not suffer the consequences of your decision you need to decide for yourself the correct course of action.

My advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Best of luck.

[HarryD]

Hi Richard,

Best of luck with your book.

Somewhere in this thread, HDEO oils were discussed. One caveat I remember is that while the ZDDP content is adequate, the detergent package is different and may be a problem.

However, for many years the factory fill for a 911 was Shell Rotella (and HDEO) and based on this most seem to feel we will be ok with these oils.

[RichardM912]

Thanks Harry for wishing me well with the book. Unfortunately, this (the choice of engine oils) is a near-bottomless topic as the length of this thread testifies.

As I understand it, the Porsche use of Shell Rotella 15W/40 was some time prior to 1985. The alterations in ZDDP chemistry did not commence in earnest until the first move to limit Phosphorus in gasoline engine oils. This came formally with SG in 1989. Also, the performance demands of heavy duty diesel engines have increased dramatically since 1985 and a HD diesel engine oil of today - even if it has the same name - is not the same beast as one back then.

Another reason for Porsche choosing a diesel oil (when using a multigrade) was probably that it would have had better in-use shear stability - retention of viscosity - than a typical gasoline engine oil of the time.

That being said, there is no massive risk in using a HD diesel oil provided it does have an appropriate specified level of gasoline engine performance (carries the right "S" performance as well as the "C"). But they do have higher ash levels and, ultimately, are not designed with gasoline engines primarily in mind. Europe is much better served in this area than the US. There they have oils which genuinely bridge the gasoline/diesel divide. In Australia, where I live, we fortunately sometimes have access to the best of both worlds - US and Europe.

[lucittm]

Ari,
Do you park your car outside when it is close to -60F? I didn't think so. It is more important to consider the engine temperature than the outside climate temperature. Our cars warm up very quickly and, with no water jacket to hold in the heat, they cool down quickly too.

I would offer that if your car is stored indoors at say 60F in the winter, and you drive it briskly in the summer when badlands of ND get above 100F, you would be fine running a synthetic 15W-40 or 10W-40. Engines don't typically fail because of poor lubrication at cold temps (I could be wrong here), usually it is a lack of lubrication on the high end of the thermometer, that's why synthetics are better, they don't burn like petroleum oil does. I like Mobil-1, but to each his own.

Good luck,

Mark

[iamtheari]

Mark: Thanks for the response. I hope the weather in VA is as pleasant this fall as it has been in ND - I'll be in VB and Williamsburg for my annual VA trip in a couple weeks. I don't do much of anything when it's -60F, a rare event. However, the engine might see -30F at times. Garage temperatures probably won't often dip below 40F on me but there is an outside chance the car will go to work with me and have to be started at -30F at the end of the day. The alternative on those days is my Silverado, and maybe I just make a rule not to drive the 911 to work when it's below zero.

And I definitely drive it briskly in the summer through the Badlands, although with roads falling into the ravines (ND-22, my favorite twisty road in the Midwest, still under repair) and heavy traffic on other Badlands routes (US-85 is absurdly busy due to the oil boom) not as briskly as I did when I was younger.

HarryD: Thanks for your response as well. I appreciate the disclaimer and the point about multiweight oils with extreme viscosity ranges improving in the past 25 years. I think I will go with the Brad Penn 0W-30 for the winter unless and until someone gives me other recommendations or I run into problems with it.

[lucittm]

Funny, when it dips below freezing here in Northern VA (5-6 times last year) I take my Silverado (2003 LT 4x4 with 4 wheel steering) to work!

The turbo is a little "skittish" on the snow and ice.

Mark

[iamtheari]

My C4 is great on wintry roads as long as the snow isn't too deep. I was thoroughly impressed the first weekend I had it when I drove it home from Denver and hit a blizzard through Wyoming. A state trooper and a few pickups who passed me going 40mph or so all ended up in the ditch backwards, while I just puttered on through. My '01 LT 4x4 doesn't have four wheel steering but it does treat me well in anything too deep for the C4.

[richardlw]

I go into the ZDDP and detergent/dispersant in my oil paper (link in sig) that my wife says I should sell since it gets 9000 downloads a month, but that is not the point.

The Diesel additive package almost always covers the gasoline needs. As mentioned, there are a few very high ash content (15 or so) that you should stay away from. One of the Motul products comes to mind. In the US there are not many that go that wild on the ash levels.

I would almost never put 20W-50 a car. Maybe for a track event. I also put it in well worn taxi engines that come in and need to be repaired but the owners want to squeeze another year out of them. It just does not pump fast enough on start up. Count on several seconds of dry wear in the bearings and valves on each startup. I've tested that. Please believe me or test it yourself. I put synthetic 5W-50 CI-4 in my race cars.

For your cold temperatures, you should be at the 0W in whatever oil you choose. Today's better 0W-40 oils are as good at shear as a 15W-40 of 15 years ago. Unless you do a lot of track runs on the hot days, you probably don't even need to consider getting into the XW-50 range. I have a graph towards the end of the paper that shows when it might be helpful.

The short version is, with normal driving in that year round weather, find yourself a Synthetic 0W-40 CI-4 or (CJ-4 if CI-4 is not available).

[333pg333]

So what would you suggest for a flat tappet i4 turbo race motor with dry sump in the heat of Australian conditions. Note, it's not always 100f+ down here...but in general it's going to be warmer than other parts of the world. In most cases this motor is used in short sprint events. ie hard for 3-5 laps.

[GothingNC]

Just met Richard Glady(VP of BP oils) at a local Pizza place last night in Raleigh. just happened to be there when I pulled up in my Targa.

Really nice guy to chat with.

He said they are developing a 15-40W formula for the air-cooled and water cooled Porsche's and it should be out in a few months.