Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by ibtisam.jawad

So, if I could add something like GM EOS to the oil that would make it work right? Or how about the Mobil 1 10W-40 Racing 4T. Are there detergent additives as well?

Brad Penn is way to expensive for me to be honest.

Do what you like.

IMHO, using EOS may or may not help. doing your own dditives can actualy make your oil perform worse. You are time, risk and money ahead just getting a good oil.

Try Valvoline VR-1 or Kendall of you want something from your FLAPS.

In my area, the Mobil 1 motorcycle oil (costs about $8-10/qt) is more expensive that Brad Penn (costs about $6-7/quart).

[CurlyDE]

Originally Posted by ibtisam.jawad

So, if I could add something like GM EOS to the oil that would make it work right? Or how about the Mobil 1 10W-40 Racing 4T. Are there detergent additives as well?

Brad Penn is way to expensive for me to be honest.

Mobil 1 is almost $9/quart in my area. I can mail-order a case of BP for $80.

[Jerome74911S]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/kendall/automotive_engine_oils/Ken%20GT-1%20High%20Performance%20MO%20%28Ti%29%20TDS%20Web .pdf


Kendall GT-1 High Performance with Liquid Titanium SAE 20W-50 Oil is does not have a big Zinc number...850ppm.
...

Are you confusing the zinc in 10W40 with the 20W50 ?

[winders]

Originally Posted by HarryD

OK Scott, I'll bite. Lack of deterents in "true" race oils means that deposits collected in the oil will plate on on engine surfaces and this is typically a bad thing.

Since you do not want an oil related failure during a race, how DO you determine when to change the oil?

Do you use a "race" oil with adequate detergents; or
Bet "on the come" things will be ok; or
Perform testing; or
???

Inquiring minds want to know.

I do whatever my very experienced engine builder says to do.....which is change the oil two to three times a season.

I have quality filters on the pressure and returns sides of the system. I use Red Line 40wt racing oil which is a Group V Ester base stock full synthetic oil.

Since my engine does not get that hot and is not revved past 6800 RPM, an oil related failure is not all that likely. I may send oil in for analysis after 10 or so hours on the engine just to see where are at. But with over 5 gallons of oil in the system, I do not anticipate any problems.

If the system held 5 to 8 quarts of oil, I would change after every race weekend. If the oil was stressed more, I would change it more often.

Scott

[db_cooper]

Originally Posted by Jerome74911S

Are you confusing the zinc in 10W40 with the 20W50 ?

The link was back to 20w50 and the spec sheet is from Kendall..the spec sheet for the 10w40 is the same..850ppm zinc and 770ppm phosphorus.

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/conoco/industrial_oils/Ken%20GT-1%20High%20Mileage%20SB%20MO%20%28Ti%29%20TDS%20We b.pdf

The contemporary school of thought on ZDDP is you need more than 1000ppm Z+P for a flat tappet engine.

Brad Penn is less than $5 a quart here in Georgia. If the cost is too high in your neighborhood...use a HDEO..even the new Rotella T6 has more than 1100ppm.. I use the 5w40 year round. Works very well. T6 was tested at 1264ppm zinc and 1147 phosphorus.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/mklinuxdude/VOA/e64704-001.gif

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by winders

I do whatever my very experienced engine builder says to do.....which is change the oil two to three times a season.

I have quality filters on the pressure and returns sides of the system. I use Red Line 40wt racing oil which is a Group V Ester base stock full synthetic oil.

Since my engine does not get that hot and is not revved past 6800 RPM, an oil related failure is not all that likely. I may send oil in for analysis after 10 or so hours on the engine just to see where are at. But with over 5 gallons of oil in the system, I do not anticipate any problems.

If the system held 5 to 8 quarts of oil, I would change after every race weekend. If the oil was stressed more, I would change it more often.

Scott

Scott:

Thank you. Redline is a great oil. Not only good lubrication but they withstand breakdown due to temperature much better than the lesser oils. Given your "easy" treatment to your engine (lower revs, good temperature control), you should expect excellent service.

I also can see how you are reluctant to change after every race. You say you change it 2-3 times per season. Out of curiosity, how many race hours is that between changes?

For comparison, street cars go about 3-5000 miles between changes. Assuming an average driving speed of 40 mile per hour, that equates to 75 to 125 hours between changes. I would also think a street car would see a more severe duty in some ways, e.g. more cold starts, temeprature spikes, etc.

[winders]

Harry,

I would say every 15 hours on the engine. I don't have a hour meter installed but will soon. After 10 hours, I will probably send oil out for analysis just to see where we are at.

Scott

[ibtisam.jawad]

I ended up getting Royal Purple 20W-50 and a bottle of Rislone engine oil supplement with zinc (ZDDP). turns out castrol gtx high mileage and valvoline VR1 said SM, SL or something similar on them.

[ibtisam.jawad]

Valvoline vr-1 now says API sm. I will be returning the royal purple because the one i got is synthetic.

[dshepp806]

@db_cooper: Are you getting the BP locally,....? I'm considering some cheaper sourcing for this oil and wondered who had it in the Big A......just curious...

After listening to many oil engineers, I'd never take the additive route, but, instead, choose an oil with the proper spread.

Best!

Doyle

[richardlw]

Adding additive is not a good idea, since you don't know the existing chemistry of the oil you are modifying or have the formulas to blend exactly. Too much ZDDP is as bad as not enough. Also, since it is polar, it displaces detergent. you want a balanced package of additives for most cases.

As for VR-1, I don't know why, but around the world you will find it it several different quality levels. Read the label where you are. There appears to be no norm.

And just to keep apples compared to apples, statements like

Verification: 1300 - 1400 PPM ZDDP

should say 1300 - 1400 ppm Zinc. I terms of ZDDP, that would produce 13000 to 14000 ppm. Don't confuse zinc and phos levels with ZDDP levels which end up being about 10 times the zinc (and phos 90% of the zinc).

[Jerome74911S]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

The link was back to 20w50 and the spec sheet is from Kendall..the spec sheet for the 10w40 is the same..850ppm zinc and 770ppm phosphorus.

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/conoco/industrial_oils/Ken%20GT-1%20High%20Mileage%20SB%20MO%20%28Ti%29%20TDS%20We b.pdf

The contemporary school of thought on ZDDP is you need more than 1000ppm Z+P for a flat tappet engine.

Brad Penn is less than $5 a quart here in Georgia. If the cost is too high in your neighborhood...use a HDEO..even the new Rotella T6 has more than 1100ppm.. I use the 5w40 year round. Works very well. T6 was tested at 1264ppm zinc and 1147 phosphorus.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/mklinuxdude/VOA/e64704-001.gif

PM sent.

[db_cooper]

Originally Posted by dshepp806

@db_cooper: Are you getting the BP locally,....? I'm considering some cheaper sourcing for this oil and wondered who had it in the Big A......just curious...

After listening to many oil engineers, I'd never take the additive route, but, instead, choose an oil with the proper spread.

Best!

Doyle

These folks are very reasonable on Brad Penn oil .RW Davis Oil Company (Ronnie Patterson) 770-923-4411

Go to BP website and select the oil you want and give them a call.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by ibtisam.jawad

Valvoline vr-1 now says API sm. I will be returning the royal purple because the one i got is synthetic.

Be aware that the 20W-50 oils do not have to conform to the lower Zn and P levels to get the API SM stamp. THe lighter oils must be below 800 ppm Zn and P to get the SM stamp. Also, you want to avoid is the API "Sunburst" as all of those oils have lower Zn and P.

Bear in mind that all 20W-50 are not the same. Under API SM, they are not REQUIRED to have 1000+ ppm either.

If you check the Product data sheet (PDS) from the VR-1 site, you will see that VR-1 20W-50 has enough of the good stuff.

[HarryD]

Today, I finally got around to looking at my October 2011 Panorama. In the Tech Q&A section there was a question on what oil for my boxster. In the reply by Slauson, he states: "The recommened oil is Mobil 1 in a ll Porsche cars produced from 1984 and up.The two approved oils are 0W/40 and 5W/40. The oils with claimed higher ZDDP levles are not recommended, as they are a mix of standard and synthetic. These also tend to have higher viscosities. ... While ZDDP was first introduced in the '50's for camshaft to flat tappet design, it has been surpassed in general by synthetic oils..."

I guess all those engine builders who reported flat cams must be wrong

Any thoughts from the resident experts?

I also wonder what Ed Mayo and Chris Powell (the Panorama Tech Committee experts for 914's and 1965 to 1994 911's) have to say on the topic.

Since I have a 1973, I will continue to use Brad Penn and enjoy my ride.

[KNS]

I can't see that there was huge design change in the cam surfaces from 1983 to 1984...

I'll bet that the newest 5W-40 Synthetics are fantastic oils (I'd like to use them), I just think they are missing some ingredients for our cars.

[mclmk8d]

I found this website...don't know if it was previously posted
The Oil Warehouse

For shipping to South Florida, it comes out to $5.95 per quart.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by mclmk8d

I found this website...don't know if it was previously posted
The Oil Warehouse

For shipping to South Florida, it comes out to $5.95 per quart.

FWIW, Oil Warehouse will sell large quantities to areas far away from their distribution centers. Get a group buy organized and save on the normally high shipping charges on this oil of choice.

Sherwood

[Nick Triesch]

HarryD, Porsche made our cars. If there was a problem using Mobil 1 don't you think they would know about it? Why would Porsche make these wonderful cars and agree to have sub standard oil put in? It just does not make sense. I have VR-1 in my Carrera but other famous car makers use Mobil 1 also. I just do not get it. Mobil 1 is one of the most famous car oils in the world. So I guess Porsche is wrong? They want their cars to wear out? Nick

[dshepp806]

The oil evolution has rendered Mobile One to not be what it "used" to be...

BP20W50.

Doyle