Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Vino

Does anyone have a UOA on Mobil 1 0w40, 5w40, 5w50 or 15w50 with at leat 3,000 miles on the oil?
Would be nice to see how the new "SN" formulation is doing in the old aircooled and to back up some peoples evidence to use it.

The new M1 0w40 suppose to have close to 1200 ppm of ZDDP and still meet the SN approval, winter oil anyone

I just received a UOA this morning on a modern M97 engine with ~20k mi on it (oil had ~800 mi, m1 0w40) and the Zn and P levels were 1026 ppm and 919 ppm, respectively.

[Nick Triesch]

So When Porsche puts in Mobil 1, it is just a marginal oil in say a 2011 Porsche GT3? Wow, I wonder why they would do that? That just does not seem smart from the makers of the best sports cars in the world.

[brads911sc]

The agenda of Porsche is to sell you a new car. What is the difference to them if you need a rebuild at 125k miles vs 175k miles. This is a slow increased wear that for most drivers is 10 years+ on a car like this. People buy a 10 year old porsche with 80k miles, drive it 7 years till its got 125k and it needs a top end. not so bad.. its a 17 year old car, right?

Seriously... nevermind that it could have gone 24 years instead of 17.

This is done by multiple manufacturers including the owners of Porsche (VW). Below is an example..

My DD is a 2010 Passat with the popular VW/Audi 2.0T. They had 10k oil change intervals a few years back. Then they were changed to 5k when they were sued by quite a few owners over sludge due to the high temp/compression etc of the turbo cars. Then in 2009 when VW came out with its new maintenance program that included oil changes at no charge it was changed back to 10k miles. Nothing else changed yet the interval doubled. VW claimed they switched from Semi Syn to Syn to justify the change, but the dealers will tell you that happened years earlier when the were initailly sued. LOL My dealer quietly told me if i was going to keep the car to ignore the recommendations and continue to bring it in every 5k miles. So I do. Fully synthetic every 5x miles at the dealers recommendation because its a turbo car. VW comps the dealer every 10k miles, but Dealers have no interest in the 10k mile interval and said i could have issues if i follow that interval. they had been there done that with the 1.8T and early 2.0T. is it hype? dealers wanting to sell me more oil changes? or VOA trying to save millions in no-charge maintenance knowing it wont impact most new car owners that trade every 5-6 years?
These people own Porsche... You do the math on the cost of no charge oil changes at 5k vs 10k... they are saving millions. and most will turn in their lease car at 4 years/40k miles and it will be resold (without a significant warranty) probably 2x before anyone knows the difference.

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

So When Porsche puts in Mobil 1, it is just a marginal oil in say a 2011 Porsche GT3? Wow, I wonder why they would do that? That just does not seem smart from the makers of the best sports cars in the world.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

So When Porsche puts in Mobil 1, it is just a marginal oil in say a 2011 Porsche GT3? Wow, I wonder why they would do that? That just does not seem smart from the makers of the best sports cars in the world.

did you read any of the comments about roller vs. flat tappets??

[Nick Triesch]

Yup, I did. But late in this thread we are talking about both new and old P-cars. Did you read any of the last comments about mobil 1 being marginal in the new water cooled cars? Just up a few.

[dshepp806]

Which comment are you referring to?

Flat tappet with high spring tensions will "want" the ZINC AND PHOSPHOROUS PPM's. (not "ZDDP package", per'se).....

Also: flat tappet=old cars (regardless of discussion lineage). To say: """So When Porsche puts in Mobil 1, it is just a marginal oil in say a 2011 Porsche GT3? Wow, I wonder why they would do that? That just does not seem smart from the makers of the best sports cars in the world""", is missing the point on the question RWebb's proposing......no?

Best!

Doyle

[hcoles]

can't resist - this seems like a rehash - another perspective, Porsche and Mobil 1 I imagine have a very STRONG business relationship
I use BP and will likely not be able to prove one way or the other if using M1 would have been better or worse. Probably will need to open the motor and rebuild anyway for some other reason in the next 10 to 15 years.

[Nick Triesch]

In the name of the Brad Penn, The Royal Purple and the Holy VR-1, Amen.

[dshepp806]

Come on,..let's keep our oil thread secular.....with science and testing at it's base.

BEST!

Doyle

[richardlw]

Originally Posted by ant7

I have read this thread with great interest and have refrained from offering my two pence worth untill now.
I was and still am of the assumption that the main issue as far as oil and engine wear is concerned relates mainly to the breakdown strength of the oil skin itself.
As far as i am aware the additives were put in older types of mineral oils to compensate for the lack of skin strength at severe points of pressure, ie, bearings and tappet to cam contact etc at extreme engine speeds and temperatures.
IMHO, Modern Synthetic oils have much better protection propeties for our engines ie, higher skin strength etc due to its molecular structure, so do we still need these extra additives ???
Also, Synthetic oils break down slower so engines stay cleaner, longer, hence protection is extended.
I have my flame suite on ready!
Anthony...

While viscosity is the most important factor (not too thick or too thin), no matter how strong the film is, oil itself does not fight acid build up, sludge build up, etc. It also is scraped off the cylinder walls by the rings, and the sliding valve train surfaces of older engine designs, leaving the thin polar molecules of zddp for anti-wear mixed up with detergent molecules to keep the carbon or combustion by-products from sticking to the surfaces....... Yes, the additives are very necessary.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Reiver

I'm a Porsche newbie. Are the newer water cooled cars flat or roller tappet? If they are roller tappets then any good oil is fine.
Corvettes are rollers and Mobil 1 is not inferior oil, just not made for flat taps. Newer cars good, older cars bad.
It isn't shear or lubricity that is the issue with flat tappets (FT) it'sthe ability to withstand a strike and not dissipate. That 1mm gap set on our SC's is a 1mm non contact strike on the cam/tappet multiplied by rpm etc. Rollers absorb this thru movement, flats just get hit dead center.
The ZDDP was put in oil years ago exactly to counter this strike. It is a formula made to absorb that specific form of contact and keep oil 'in place', to cling to the strike surface.
If you've ever rebuilt a FT engine that was recently run on non ZDDP oils you can see the wear on the FT train. Pitting, hollowing of the tappets and cam lobe wear.
Call up any local engine builder and just ask them.

All 911, 964, 993, 996, 997 engines are flat tappet motors.

ZDDP was reduced solely to extend catalytic converter life, at the same time there was a move to lighter weight oils to improve fuel economy. And during the same time frame variable cam timing and hydraulic lifters have been introduced(hyd lifters w/ the 993s, vvt w/ 996)

I'd use at least the weight oil that was recommended at the time the car was sold, that would be 20w -50 through the end of '89 811 production and 15w-50 or 15w-40 through the end of 993 production. Current M1 15w-50 while somewhat reduced in ZDDP from that which was available in '89 is still adequate in that regard, If you feel guilty throw in a qt or 2 of Brad Penn to reinforce the ZDDP levels.

M1 was hard to get this summer but I've seen it back on the shelves this fall in both 1 & 5 qt containers, Brad Penn for most of us is a lot harder to come by, I got lucky and have been buying it from track friends.

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by hcoles

can't resist - this seems like a rehash - another perspective, Porsche and Mobil 1 I imagine have a very STRONG business relationship
I use BP and will likely not be able to prove one way or the other if using M1 would have been better or worse. Probably will need to open the motor and rebuild anyway for some other reason in the next 10 to 15 years.

yes you can test bp vs mobil. send in a sample of both to blackstone labs to see what is actually happening in your engine.

[dshepp806]

Been there,..done that...learned quickly to use Stavely (after mucho dollars for comparative studies of UOA's and VOA's....that aside.

At 3K miles, one wouldn't see a drastic movement (downward) in TBN. I'm a fan of fresh oil (and filter)........(still).

I saw the Z & P dissappear with Mobile One, way back when it happened...all unannounced,..very short changed, I felt. My car had been long serviced by the good Mobile One for 9 years prior to my buying her. THEN,..sheeit hits fan.....she's a BP girl now,..and will remain so.

BEST!

Doyle

[db_cooper]

I'd use at least the weight oil that was recommended at the time the car was sold, that would be 20w -50 through the end of '89 811 production

I'm not quarreling and yes, 20w50 is recommended for use between 15*F outside ambient air temperature and above, off the scale at 110*F

15W40 and 15w50 are recommended from 5*F and off the scale at the top too and is interchangeable with 20w50 at high temperatures.

From the owners 1980's 3.2 manual.

When it gets cold outside, I really don't want 20w50 in the crankcase. Ever leave a bottle of 20w50 outside when it gets below freezing? It pours like molasses. Can't imagine what it would be like at 15*.

I would quarrel with the engineer who specified that requirement.

On topic..yes we need ZDDP. No it is not enough ZDDP quantity in Mobil1 0w40.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

I'd use at least the weight oil that was recommended at the time the car was sold, that would be 20w -50 through the end of '89 811 production

I'm not quarreling and yes, 20w50 is recommended for use between 15*F outside ambient air temperature and above, off the scale at 110*F

15W40 and 15w50 are recommended from 5*F and off the scale at the top too and is interchangeable with 20w50 at high temperatures.

From the owners 1980's 3.2 manual.

When it gets cold outside, I really don't want 20w50 in the crankcase. Ever leave a bottle of 20w50 outside when it gets below freezing? It pours like molasses. Can't imagine what it would be like at 15*.

I would quarrel with the engineer who specified that requirement.

On topic..yes we need ZDDP. No it is not enough ZDDP quantity in Mobil1 0w40.

Of course, If you drive your car when it's that cold then adjust the oil accordingly, many if not most of us don't

[richardlw]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

I'd use at least the weight oil that was recommended at the time the car was sold, that would be 20w -50 through the end of '89 811 production

I'm not quarreling and yes, 20w50 is recommended for use between 15*F outside ambient air temperature and above, off the scale at 110*F

15W40 and 15w50 are recommended from 5*F and off the scale at the top too and is interchangeable with 20w50 at high temperatures.

From the owners 1980's 3.2 manual.

When it gets cold outside, I really don't want 20w50 in the crankcase. Ever leave a bottle of 20w50 outside when it gets below freezing? It pours like molasses. Can't imagine what it would be like at 15*.

I would quarrel with the engineer who specified that requirement.

On topic..yes we need ZDDP. No it is not enough ZDDP quantity in Mobil1 0w40.

All books, manuals, etc. need to be read in relation to what was known and available at the time of printing. I once worked for a company that tried to solve that problem. Every 6 months we sent out thousands of little stickers to registered owners with instructions as to which page to paste the corrections. On field visits I saw about 30% were applied.

Before good synthetic technology and group II base oils, getting a 30 point spread in a multigrade (20W-50) meant a lot of polymers, and little was know as to which polymers could resist shear. So if your engine design was for a 50 at operating temperature, you had to spec 20W-50 and hope for the best. Some brands used the expensive polymers, others not. Group II oils didn't become common place until the 90's or later. Once polymer technology improved and group II oils became more standard, you could be more assured of less shear, but sticking with brands that concentrate on quality instead of price. (group II uses less polymers) With the design of good, affordable, synthetics, you can have low temp protection and high temp protection.

I've measured a 4 second difference in oil to bearings between 15W-40 and 20W-50 at 25C. Not something worth playing with.

[db_cooper]

My point being the 3.2 911 engine was really engineered with a 40w in mind rather than a 50w.

The owner's manual even has the ranges for single grade oils. There is no range for straight 50w. Straight 40w was recommended between 70*F outside ambient air temperature and off the scale at +110.

There is a paragraph on "fuel efficient oils" and talks about synthetic or hydrocrack oils. The range is -10*F to max 110*F for 10w40 or 10w30.

I would not completely agree about 10w30 there too.

I use 5w40 synthetic HDEO year round. Big additive package and ZDDP.

I think 20w50 is too much unless you are racing in the heat of summer.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

My point being the 3.2 911 engine was really engineered with a 40w in mind rather than a 50w.

The owner's manual even has the ranges for single grade oils. There is no range for straight 50w. Straight 40w was recommended between 70*F outside ambient air temperature and off the scale at +110.

There is a paragraph on "fuel efficient oils" and talks about synthetic or hydrocrack oils. The range is -10*F to max 110*F for 10w40 or 10w30.

I would not completely agree about 10w30 there too.

I use 5w40 synthetic HDEO year round. Big additive package and ZDDP.

I think 20w50 is too much unless you are racing in the heat of summer.

M1 15w-50 will be fine for the vast majority of us that don't drive our cars through an Alaskan winter. I'm sure there are lots of folks that use lighter oils, whatever floats your boat.

[Nick Triesch]

My 85 Carrera just turned 140,000 on the clock. It better well go another 140,000 or I will be ticked off! That darn oil better do it's dang job! BTW, I notice that here in SO CAL, even with our great climate (72 year round average) you just do not see 1985 cars around. They are all long ago flattened. But I sure do see a lot of older, classic P-cars!

[Jimmysidecarr]

Good afternoon.

I just wanted to pass on some information related to this thread topic since we (Royal Purple) recently reformulated our SAE/API street oils and although both old and new formula are still often able to be found, a little checking of the back label for the API license will be worth doing.

Due to the reduction in anti wear from the API-SM cap of 800ppm phosphorus our SAE/API-SM and SN street oils are no longer the best choice for flat tappet performance engines with lifts above .500". We do not recommend our SAE/API-SN 20W-50 (part #01250, quart bottle) or SAE/API-SN 10W-40 (part #01140, quart bottle) for those applications any longer.

There are still multiple Royal Purple oils available that are appropriate and though exact levels are proprietary, typical zinc and phosphorus are in excess of 1200ppm.

Those appropriate and recommended oils for air cooled Porsche engines are as follows.
If you can still find the old formula Royal Purple API-SL SAE 10w-40 and API-SJ 20W-50 those are fine and though they are not your best choice(from us) they will still be better than many other oils on the shelves these days.

As you go down the list the level of performance and protection increases and the price will too.

Royal Purple HPS 10W-40 (part #31140, quart bottle)(new)
Royal Purple HPS 20W-50 (part #31250, quart bottle)(new)

Royal Purple Max Cycle 10W-40 (part #01315, quart bottle)(unchanged)
Royal Purple Max Cycle 20W-50 (part #01315, quart bottle)(unchanged)

Royal Purple XPR 10W-40 (part #01041, quart bottle)(unchanged)
Royal Purple XPR 20W-50 (part #01051, quart bottle)(unchanged)

If you have any questions please feel free to contact me at the Royal Purple technical support department 8-5 mon-fri @ 888-382-6300

or via email : jmorrissey@royalpurple.com
or the general tech department email: rpautotech@royalpurple.com

Thank you for allowing me to share this important update.

Jim Morrissey
Technical Services
Royal Purple, Inc.