Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[brads911sc]

I have no dog in this fight. You are comparing apples and oranges. Syn vs Dino. One is not always better than the other... both have their advantages and disadvatages depending on the intended use... regardless of what is on paper. Brad Penn does not have inferior base stocks. But I dont care. I have Valvoline VR1 in my car right now, and I broke it in with Kendall GT1. I put SYN in the Passat Turbo because its a turbo. Doesnt make the Syn better than the VR1. they are designed for different applications. The fact that I like the VR1 doesnt make Brad Penn inferior. The fact that you like Red Line doesnt make the BP inferior. Let it go dude. people have had success with Brad Penn... Including MOST of the top engine rebuilders in the United States. There were ton's of race shops that would use NOTHING but Kendall back when it was made in the same refinery as BP. Its a good Dino oil. It is what it is...

Originally Posted by winders

Since Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 is blended with a hydrocracked Group III base stock which is just modified plain old oil, I would prefer to use Amsoil (PAO Group IV) or a PAO Group IV Mobil 1 product. Both of which use a superior base stock to Brad Penn.

Scott

[winders]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Brad Penn does not have inferior base stocks.

I did not say that Brad Penn had inferior base stocks.

What I said was is that the Group V Ester base stocks used by Red Line and the Group IV PAO base stocks used by Amsoil and Mobil 1 are better base stocks than the blended hydrocracked Group III base stock used in Brad Penn. This cannot be successfully disputed.

The reason people choose an oil with a Group III base stock over a Group IV or Group V base stock is generally economic. Not because they believe the Group III base stock is better.

Brad Penn is a fine hydrocracked oil. If you choose to not run a fully synthetic oil, it is a great choice.

Whatever oil you choose, make sure it has the proper ZDDP levels and you change it at whatever interval it requires.

Scott

[RWebb]

experts (people at race shops in the PNW with tons and tons of experience & opened up motors to look at) say to use Brad Penn

Chales N.s tests show it does very well

those two things are good enough for me.

[winders]

Originally Posted by RWebb

experts (people at race shops in the PNW with tons and tons of experience & opened up motors to look at) say to use Brad Penn

Chales N.s tests show it does very well

those two things are good enough for me.

Brad Penn is a great "sort of but not really synthetic" oil. What makes it great is the additive package. It has what Porsche motors need.

You don't have to run full synthetic oils. But they are better, assuming they have the proper additives for the application, and offer longer change intervals. They certainly offer better protection when the engine runs hotter than normal.

Simple facts really....

Scott

[brads911sc]

there is more to oil choice than the "on paper" base stock properties and additive packages. The things you mention are just one or two of many factors that one must consider. You are making this a one-dimensional argument.
For example, One of the primary reasons we change our oil so often is due to dirt, grit and petro / combustion byproducts. In short, the oil keeps the engine clean. I am not a fan of longer change intervals becasue Syn oil doesnt make the dirt go away. So the advantage of using a Syn based on longer intervals is Nil to me since Im changing it every 3k miles regardless. Maybe on modern fuel injected cars you dont have this problem? but on a mid 80's 911 you do. Where does that factor into your equation?

I am not alone, When I bought my 2010 Passat 2.0T Turbo, the dealer sales Dept told me the oil change interval was 10k miles and it was of course free. This was justified due to Syn oil... In 2009 -- same car, same engine. same oil.. the change interval was 5k miles... but wasnt free. So as part of the marketing of the car they stretched the service interval.. seriously! When I received a call from my dealer service dept at 5k miles to come in for my oil change, I reminded him of the advertised 10k mile interval... he told me not to buy the sales hype and come in for my 5k oil change to "protect" my investment. of course they used 100% Syn... and told me they would see me in 5k miles. Of course they are all free... as I dont pay any maintenance costs for the new VW. The dealers are actively ignoring the marketing hype and official VW service intervals and doing what they feel is best.. at their own expense (they only get reimbursed by VOA every 10k). They justify ignoring VOA by classifying everyone as needing the "severe" schedule.
This was after they were sued a few years ago for sludge in the turbos caused by longer change intervals. Most of dealers used Mobil 1 even back then.

Syn oils may be "better" on paper... but it is not the perfect solution the Syn marketing Depts make it out to be. Id rather use a good Dino or Syn Blend and chage it every 3k miles for the same price as your High End Syn oil every 10k-15k miles.. and know my engine is clean and well cared for... Most engine builders of Porsche Air cooled engines agree. Just read all 80 opages of this thread... many experts who have built 100's of engines discuss this very thing... How many engines have you built on which you base your knowledge?

Cant logically base a decision that is multi-dimensional on a single dimension.

So to each his own...

Originally Posted by winders

Brad Penn is a great "sort of but not really synthetic" oil. What makes it great is the additive package. It has what Porsche motors need.

You don't have to run full synthetic oils. But they are better, assuming they have the proper additives for the application, and offer longer change intervals. They certainly offer better protection when the engine runs hotter than normal.

Simple facts really....

Scott

[winders]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

One of the primary reasons we change our oil so often is due to dirt and grit. In short, the oil keeps the engine clean. I am not a fan of longer change intervals becasue Syn oil doesnt make the dirt go away. So the advantage of using a Syn based on longer intervals is Nil to me since Im changing it every 3k miles regardless.
Example, When I bought my 2010 Passat Turbo, the dealer sales Dept told me the oil change interval was 10k miles and it was of course free. This was justified due to Syn oil... last year.. same car, same engine. same oil.. the change interval was 5k miles. When I received a call from my dealer service dept at 5k miles to come in for my oil change... I reminded him of the advertised 10k mile interval... he told me not to buy the sales hype and come in for my 5k oil change to "protect" my investment. of course they used 100% Syn... and told me they would see me in 5k miles. Of course they are all free... as I dont pay any maintenance costs for the new VW. The dealers are actively ignoring the marketing hype and official VW service intervals and doing what they feel is best.. at their own expense. This was after they were sued a few years ago for sludge in the turbos caused by longer change intervals.

Syn oils may be "better" on paper... but it is not the perfect solution the Syn guys make it out to be. Id rather use a good Dino or Syn Blend and chage it every 3k miles for the same price as your Red Line every 10k miles.. and know my engine is clean and well cared for... Most engine builders of Porsche Air cooled engines agree. Just read all 80 opages of this thread... many experts discuss this very thing...

So to each his own...

brads911sc,

A common misconception is that we change oil because it gets "dirty" and your "grit" comment adds to that. If you have dirt and grit floating in in your oil, your filtration system is not doing its job. We replace the filters because they are full of particles and are unable to continue doing their job.

With conventional oils, the oil breaks down fast enough that it make sense to change the oil when it is time to change the oil filter.

We change oil because the chemical properties of the oil break down and the oil is no longer able to do its job. This break down happens due to several factors, including (but not limited to): contamination, oxidation, thermal breakdown, molecular shear, and evaporation.

If you chose to do oil analysis, you certainly could extend your drain intervals using full synthetic oils without risk as long as you changed the filters. That's a lot of work and I understand why you would not want to do that. The point is that you could.....

Compared to conventional and hydrocracked oils, Group IV and Group V full synthetic oils offer some indisputable advantages. Chief among them is the superior performance in high and low thermal conditions. Cold start performance is another. As is overall lubricity. They resist molecular shear much better. They are less susceptible to chemical degradation. Engines run cleaner and are less likely to build up sludge. Finally, they perform at a more consistent level through out their life.

Assuming appropriate additive packages, Group IV and Group V full synthetic oils are better than Group III hydrocracked oils. That cannot be disputed. You can dispute the need for the Group IV and Group V full synthetic oils in your application. That is up to you to decide. I cannot and have not tried to make that judgment for you.

I use full synthetic because I want the superior performance in high thermal conditions and I want the increased lubricity.

Scott

[brads911sc]

Understood. I agree that Syn oils have better properties in many areas.

I guess the VW-Audi dealers just dont buy all that hype either on brand new Turbo cars... They minimize their risk (warranted or not) by changing their Syn oil on Turbos every 5k miles. Kind of goes against everything Syn oil manufactures sell us on TV. It was based (of course) on a class action lawsuit where they quietly replaced 100's of engines, extended warranties, and went back to a shorter interval (5k)... Audi has been using Mobil 1 since it came out.. but ok... you have listed the marketing talking points quite well.. The best medicine for high output turbo engines is frequent changes, not whether its Dino, Syn or a Blend. For most of us, under 3k change intervals, Dino VR1 or a Blend like BP is actually better than a long 10-15k interval with a Syn... that really is my only point... I think most engine builders would agree.

http://classactionlawsuitsinthenews.com/class-action-settlements/audi-a4-volkswagen-vw-passat-class-action-settlement-of-class-action-lawsuit-over-1-8-liter-turbo-engine-oil-sludge/

Originally Posted by winders

brads911sc,

A common misconception is that we change oil because it gets "dirty" and your "grit" comment adds to that. If you have dirt and grit floating in in your oil, your filtration system is not doing its job. We replace the filters because they are full of particles and are unable to continue doing their job.

With conventional oils, the oil breaks down fast enough that it make sense to change the oil when it is time to change the oil filter.

We change oil because the chemical properties of the oil break down and the oil is no longer able to do its job. This break down happens due to several factors, including (but not limited to): contamination, oxidation, thermal breakdown, molecular shear, and evaporation.

If you chose to do oil analysis, you certainly could extend your drain intervals using full synthetic oils without risk as long as you changed the filters. That's a lot of work and I understand why you would not want to do that. The point is that you could.....

Compared to conventional and hydrocracked oils, Group IV and Group V full synthetic oils offer some indisputable advantages. Chief among them is the superior performance in high and low thermal conditions. Cold start performance is another. As is overall lubricity. They resist molecular shear much better. They are less susceptible to chemical degradation. Engines run cleaner and are less likely to build up sludge. Finally, they perform at a more consistent level through out their life.

Assuming appropriate additive packages, Group IV and Group V full synthetic oils are better than Group III hydrocracked oils. That cannot be disputed. You can dispute the need for the Group IV and Group V full synthetic oils in your application. That is up to you to decide. I cannot and have not tried to make that judgment for you.

I use full synthetic because I want the superior performance in high thermal conditions and I want the increased lubricity.

Scott

[brads911sc]

We are saying the same thing. I didnt mean "grit" literally. Contamination, combustion byproducts, etc. We are more prone on an old air cooled porsche to have unburnt fuel in our oil, carbon, etc. Its just part of owning an older less efficient car... I think most of us just feel better dumping our oil every 3k miles and knowing its clean and good for another 3k miles...

Originally Posted by winders

brads911sc,

A common misconception is that we change oil because it gets "dirty" and your "grit" comment adds to that. If you have dirt and grit floating in in your oil, your filtration system is not doing its job. We replace the filters because they are full of particles and are unable to continue doing their job.

With conventional oils, the oil breaks down fast enough that it make sense to change the oil when it is time to change the oil filter.

We change oil because the chemical properties of the oil break down and the oil is no longer able to do its job. This break down happens due to several factors, including (but not limited to): contamination, oxidation, thermal breakdown, molecular shear, and evaporation.

Scott

[winders]

brads911sc,

The problem in the class action law suit you mention wasn't "synthetic oil hype". The problem was two fold. First, the capacity of the system was not sufficient for the load place on the oil. Second, many customers were using conventional and Group III oils. The thermal stress placed on the oils caused it to coke and for sludge to build up. I can guarantee you the conventional and Group III oils had problems before the Group IV and Group V oils.

The capabilities of synthetic oil is not hype.

Scott

[HarryD]

As I tell many folks.. your car ... Your Money ... YOUR CHOICE. do what ever you think is ok. If Wesson oil floats your boat, then use that, no skin off my nose.

Like Randy, I trust several of the PNW engine builders who have built more engines than I will ever own. I figure that they have a better database to make their decisions and they are pretty much in agreement on how to proceed. FWIW they have changed positions over time due to changes in the oil formulations.

[333pg333]

Originally Posted by HarryD

As I tell many folks.. your car ... Your Money ... YOUR CHOICE. do what ever you think is ok. If Wesson oil floats your boat, then use that, no skin off my nose.

Like Randy, I trust several of the PNW engine builders who have built more engines than I will ever own. I figure that they have a better database to make their decisions and they are pretty much in agreement on how to proceed. FWIW they have changed positions over time due to changes in the oil formulations.

Harry is it possible to get the 'Added 12/8/2009' notes updated on the 1st page to reflect some of these 'changed positions'?

[James Brown]

"For those who do not want to read it all, the Cliff notes answer is: SWEPCO 15W-40 or Brad Penn 20W-50. Ther are other oils out ther as well. If they are NOT API SL, SM or CJ4 rated, chances are they may be ok."

From page 1, first post, Harry D. 9/15/2007

[dshepp806]

Originally Posted by nize

here's some interesting info regarding blackstone lab results for brad penn oil. from;
Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

ZDDP LAB RESULTS
We have seen the question arise on a number of chat rooms and websites about the amount of Zinc and Phosphorus in our Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oils. The questions seem to have arose after a number of people individually sent samples of our products to Blackstone Lab(s) for analysis. The Blackstone report showed a lower Zinc and Phosphorus additive concentration level then our established in house specifications and laboratory results from our ISO 9001:2008 quality control lab proved.

In an effort to clarify any misconception about our product we did our own testing and sent three virgin oil samples (each from the same identical batch) to both Blackstone Lab and Southwest Research Lab for testing. All three Southwest sample results were completely in line with our internal specifications/analysis. The Blackstone zinc and phosphorus results in all three analysis were lower than our internal specifications/analysis and Southwest Research’s lab results. The results for both the Blackstone and Southwest Research analysis are listed below:

Brad Penn Product........Blackstone...............Southwest Research
Penn Grade 1...............zinc 1,214 ppm.........zinc 1,540 ppm
20W-50 #7119.............phos 944 ppm...........phos 1,319 ppm
Penn Grade 1...............zinc 1,424 ppm.........zinc 1,565 ppm
10W-30 #7150.............phos 1,139 ppm........phos 1,332 ppm
Brad Penn PCMO...........zinc 689 ppm............zinc 1,051 ppm
20W-50 SJ #7123*.......phos 522 ppm...........phos 901 ppm

*In some cases we feel our PCMO SAE 20W-50 was sent in for analysis (and not the High Performance Oil SAE 20W-50) which does contain lower Zinc and Phosphorous additive concentration levels.

The difference in results between Blackstone and SRI can be explained by a difference in methodology in analyzing the samples and not differences in the formulation. Blackstone employed measurement techniques more generally employed in analyzing used oils, while SRI employed methods more usually utilized for new multigrade engine oils. The samples provided to both labs were new oils. New oils that have not been subjected to shear often require higher dilution rates in the elemental analysis measured by ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma) as indicated in method ASTM D5185.

also from;
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/faq.php

On my virgin oil sample, the additives seem low. What's up?

After reviewing the results from some virgin samples that didn't look like they should, we realized we were using a measurement technique more generally employed in analyzing used oils, whereas we should have been using a method for new multigrade engine oils. New oils that have not been subjected to shear often require higher dilution rates in the elemental analysis measured by ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma). This problem did not affect all virgin samples; the samples that were affected were those that used a higher VI (viscosity index) improver, such as Brad Penn's High Performance oil. We've corrected the issue now so that virgin samples are indeed reading as they should. If you are concerned about the readings for your virgin oil sample, give us a call.

well,..well....now I know why Blackstone VOA numbers were so the frck off compared to Staveley's...glad I stayed with Staveley's measurements...(Geez)...

BP 20W50,..every 3K miles,..period.

Doyle

[333pg333]

Would it be churlish of me to suppose that Blackstone, BITOG, and M1 seem to be good bedfellows?

[teenerted1]

Add SN oils to the list to avoid. Just did a change on the DD and mobil now has that rating on 10/30w

"For those who do not want to read it all, the Cliff notes answer is: SWEPCO 15W-40 or Brad Penn 20W-50. Ther are other oils out ther as well. If they are NOT API SL, SM or CJ4 rated, chances are they may be ok."



From page 1, first post, Harry D. 9/15/2007

[dshepp806]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Would it be churlish of me to suppose that Blackstone, BITOG, and M1 seem to be good bedfellows?

COOL,..haven't heard the word "churlish" in quite a while!

I wouldn't know if they were bedfellows or not.

As to practicals,...Once I assumed stewardship of my '89 I spent lots of time digesting as much as possible on the oil transitions,..the varied "formulations". Being an EE, I can appreciate and respect testing methodologies. I could never figure out "why" the VOA samples were SO different between 3 different labs! 2 were very close, w/ Blackstone being out of whack......repeatedly. I spent mucho $$$ getting the data...THEN I read the post I referenced already.....WOW....

I'll say this: I changed out the oil today on my Carrera, R/R the Brad Penn 20W50 and a fresh OC54 Mahl filter,..all under 2600 miles...I keep FRESH stock in her at ALL times....and so goes "my" process...........annually on the MobileOne Delvac tranny fluid, regardless of mileadge.......yeap,..a "fluid freak"......

BEST!

Doyle

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Would it be churlish of me to suppose that Blackstone, BITOG, and M1 seem to be good bedfellows?

The there is an article Blackstone published on ZDDP recently (Blackstone and ZDDP) that really makes you wonder about them.

[dshepp806]

Originally Posted by HarryD

The there is an article Blackstone published on ZDDP recently (Blackstone and ZDDP) that really makes you wonder about them.

+1 on "that"...

Doyle

[333pg333]

...that's what I was alluding to.

I joined that site and posted a few questions and answers. Specifically I asked some questions of one of their supposed gurus and they didn't like it. They kicked me off. Same with a UK site called PistonHeads. They have an Oil thread that is essentially run by some guys that actually promote and sell oil. When I've referred them to this thread to get their take they just totally ignore me. Perhaps because they promote 0-30w type synthetics for many applications. Who knows...but it certainly seems like there are some agendas going unchecked out there in Keyboard-land. S'pose they say the same about this thread.
So it goes...so it goes...

[Bob930slant]

the link is from Mobile 1 web site. i have a 930 so mileage is not a concern Mobile1 20-50 Vtwin for me.

Any Problem Running Motorcycle Oil in an Older European Race Car?

----------------------
Quoted from web site:
Q:Any Problem Running Motorcycle Oil in an Older European Race Car?
My older sports car came with 20W-50 from the factory. My mechanic recommends using 20W-50 Mobil 1 (V-Twin Motorcycle Oil) over the 15W-50 Mobil 1. Since this is a pre-catalytic converter era car he prefers the slightly higher levels of zinc diphosphate contained in the 20W-50. Since the car was designed to run at high rpms and will be primarily used in the summer he has indicated that it's his preferred choice over your 15W-50 Mobil 1 and Castrol's 20W-50 "Classic" formulation. Any problem in running a motorcycle oil in an older European race car such as this? Thanks for your help.
-- John , Utica, MI
Answer:
The most important difference between a motorcycle formulation and an automotive formulation is that the automotive oils contain friction modifiers for improved fuel economy. Frankly, you are using 50 grade oil, you are probably not looking for fuel economy. So as you can see using the motorcycle oil in your vehicle is not an issue. Comparing the two oils, the main point of differentiation, beyond the motorcycle needs, is the level of ZDDP antiwear additive. Either product offers a robust level of antiwear with 15W-50 @ 1200 ppm phosphorus compared to the 20W-50 @ 1600 ppm.