Installing RSR Seals

jklaspok · 11-01-2007, 04:33 PM

Could someone tell me where in the Rocker assy I install these flat rubber washer seals. From what I can see, they fit one each over the expansion sleeve and the expansion nut. I've seen reference to a grove, but I see nothing like that in bore or shaft when I remove the bolt.

ZOA NOM · ZOA NOM's Garage

There should be two grooves in each rocker shaft, near the ends, that circles the shaft. The seals fit into these grooves. They install perpendicular to the shaft, and their inner diameter fits into the groove. The outer diameter sticks out enough to seal in the bore of the cam tower. Make sure they aren't twisted in the groove when you install them.

jklaspok · 11-01-2007, 05:16 PM

The end of the shaft has a beveled lip where the sleeves mate. Is the groove the recessed area beyond the lip?

ZOA NOM · ZOA NOM's Garage

The grooves should be obvious. They are the dark lines on the shafts in the pic below:

jklaspok · 11-01-2007, 09:07 PM

So I need to remove the rocker shaft to install the seals?

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

absolutely

be sure to read up on all engine surgery before doing it - a novice can easily destroy these motors.

dtw · 11-02-2007, 03:34 AM

+1 on Randy - extreme caution is advised. It is very easy to do more damage by incorrectly removing rockers than good by installing seals on the rockers. Gouging the rocker shaft bores, chipping/gouging the rocker shaft ends, breaking rocker shafts (they're quite delicate at the groove area), etc. Not trying to scare you off the job but just alert you to the potential issues.

sand_man · 11-02-2007, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtw

+1 on Randy - extreme caution is advised. It is very easy to do more damage by incorrectly removing rockers than good by installing seals on the rockers. Gouging the rocker shaft bores, chipping/gouging the rocker shaft ends, breaking rocker shafts (they're quite delicate at the groove area), etc. Not trying to scare you off the job but just alert you to the potential issues.

Good advice being given. Why do feel that you need them? Do you have a leak? I installed the seals because I was "in there" doing an engine rebuild. However, this was one area (maybe the only) in my low mileage 930 that WASN'T leaking...so I really wouldn't have bothered, under normal circumstances.

Ironically, the only "GOTCHA" that I encountered from my engine rebuild were "walking" rocker shafts, that were able to loosen themselves. Nothing was damaged as I kept a close eye during break-in.

I made the mistake of oiling the shaft bores first, to help them slip in. I should have installed them dry and then oiled the shafts through the oil passages on the rocker arm once they were properly torqued. Installation of these is well documented in Wayne's engine rebuild book.

hcoles · 11-02-2007, 06:00 AM

+++1 re. easy to mess things up taking out shafts or reinstalling - be very careful not to nick or in any way damage the bores - and the usual "they don't go in with equal spacing from the outside" warning.. I oiled the shafts/etc. and only have one or two that are seeping very little. There is also the controversy of "over torqueing". If you read what Henry says... if everything is to spec and properly assembled they will not leak. That's what I remember anyway. One good thing about taking out the shafts is you can see the condition of the bushings/shafts and open whole new can of worms for yourself. You are then well started down the slippery slope.
my 0.02

jklaspok · 11-02-2007, 07:09 AM

Thanks for these words of caution and wisdom. I've read some of the posts and many say it's a piece o' cake to install these. What they don't say is the shaft needs to be removed to get to the groves. Or they use the wrong name for the parts they are descibing. I found a post addressing the installation with the motor installed - search on "RSR seal Installation". I'm not sure how he was able to reach all of the rockers. And at that, how he realigned the shafts once he reinstalled them.

And yes, I have some oil leaking from the rockers. It's not too serious but I thought while I had the engine out to do some tranny work, I would address the leaks. I do have the Bentley manual, but I am having second thoughts about doing this procedure. Would it be best to torque the pinch bolts to the recommended 16 -18 ft-lbs and call it good?

dtw · 11-02-2007, 07:19 AM

If the engine is on the stand and you don't mind doing a bit of disassembly using some due diligence, it really is easy (compared to say, rebuilding the motor). Just be careful and note the above cautions.

hcoles · 11-02-2007, 07:20 AM

maybe the "real" experts will chime in.... when you say torque... there is a distinction between "check" torque and loosening and retorqueing. If you set the wrench to e.g. 17 ft-lbs and it clicks... you don't really know that the bolt was assembled to 17 or more... because of the static friction. If you loosen and retorque then you will know it is at the proper torque but you may move something and end up with a leak or leaking more. Also, I don't think all the shafts are easy to get to with a torque wrench with all the shafts installed. Be careful to note not to try and torque the nut just torque the bolt head side. The nut side won't move.

KTL · 11-02-2007, 07:23 AM

Like ZOANAS said, when you install them make sure you don't "roll" the seal into the groove. You want to keep the seal from winding-up as you drag it over the end of the shaft. A properly installed seal will nicely sit down in the groove ALL THE WAY AROUND THE GROOVE. If the seal stands up out of the groove unevenly, then you most likely inverted the seal and twisted it as it slid over the shaft end and went into the groove.

I agree it's important to get the bores cleaned up a bit before removing the shafts. Any corrosion, dirt & grime can scratch the shaft as you remove it. Same goes for reinstalling. The wear limit on the shafts is very small, so that tells you the fit between the shaft and rocker arm bushing is very tight and precise.

KTL · 11-02-2007, 07:48 AM

Good topic on the proper torque spec and the reason why it's really not necessary to use the RSR seals

Rocker arm shaft leaks!

ZOA NOM · ZOA NOM's Garage

Pay close attention to the orientation when you install the shafts in the bore. The end of the shaft that is in the narrowest part of the housing should be flush with the outside edge of the hole.

JFairman · 11-02-2007, 08:21 AM

I use allen head wrenches as little pry bars to push them out carefully.
Maybe there is a better way...
Then put gradually bigger sockets under the 90 degree bend of the allen wrench to keep having something to leverage against as they come out.
You can then rotate the shaft 180 degrees when you reinstall them if you want.
It's also a good time to replace the elephant foot adjuster if it's worn or the threads are tweaked.

If you have really talented small fingers maybe you could just push out the shaft around 5/8" and slip the seal over the edge and into the groove without completely removing them, then push them back into place and tighten them..... thats a maybe.

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

as to whether you should do it... you need to assess your mechanical skills and experience

if the motor is already out, then that makes a difference - a big one, I'd say.

If a lot of miles on the motor then I'd just do a top end rebuild anyway.

You might ask on the engine rebuilding forum.

if you try it, be sure to have a very clean work area - grit in the bores = no-no

jklaspok · 11-02-2007, 10:20 AM

I decided to remove the shaft to the cyl 6 intake rocker. It was real easy to get to since I'm replacing the oil cooler o'rings. I found seals had been previously installed. Although the previous owner did a fair amount of maintenance, he never mentioned installing RSR seals. I looked at the the other rockers and noticed many shafts had either slipped or were installed incorrectly. The 5mm side was flush with the cam outer cam tower. Based on the statement from Zoanast: "The end of the shaft that is in the narrowest part of the housing should be flush with the outside edge of the hole"; the 8mm nut should be slightly protuding out. I guess I have some cleaning and readjusting to do.

JFairman · 11-02-2007, 10:28 AM

Depends on which way they're installed...

The middle ones (#2 and #5 cylinder) can go either way... the others have to be installed so you can get a 1/4" drive wrench with 5mm allen socket, or whatever you're using on the 5mm side.

You also need an 8mm allen wrench that is or has been shortened as far as possible to reach the 8mm wrench size bolt that has to face the back of the car on the #1 and #4 cylinder.

ZOA NOM · ZOA NOM's Garage

The direction of the shaft, and therefore the 5mm vs 8mm end is not as important as the orientation of the shaft left-to-right in the bore. The shafts on the ends of the cam tower are more easily tightened with the 5mm end facing inward, however. If you look closely at the cam tower bores, you will see that there is more "meat" for the shaft to fit into on one of the two sides. The shaft should be flush with the side with the least "meat".

I hope that makes sense.