What can you tell me about harness belts?

[75Carrera]

My '75 with Sport Recarro seats (and all but useless seat belts) has me looking for the some good, hold me in place, harness belts. I have a B pillar harness bar already in the car. I don't want to change my seats. I started looking for belts and got a little confused. 4 point, 5 point, 6, quick release, 2", 3" too many options and no pictures of what they look like installed...
A picture would really help!
Anybody know what to look for and maybe where?
I think lap and shoulder belts would be enough. (4 point?)

[cay-ahe]

I'm not sure if your are looking for track belts or just better belts. These are excellent track belts.

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/

[75Carrera]

Thanks cay-ahe
Not specifically for track, although I do some DE days. I run on mountain roads with many fast twistie turns (left and right). My current, stock, belts are about worthless and seldom catch. I like the belts at HMS but they don't mention Porsche applications. But that looks like what I'm thinking of.
I want to keep my butt in the seat and shoulders held firm so I don't eat my steering wheel...

[tonythetarga]

If you plan to use these for DE's you want to check with your region or club. PCA says that if you run harnesses, they have to be at least 5 pt with seats made for harnesses ie: proper race seats. A harness bar is for guide purposes to get the harnesses to proper shoulder height and not meant as an anchor point. You would either need a roll bar or anchor the harnesses to rear seat belt anchor points. Again, for a DE, you will need equal restraints and seats for both driver and instructor.

[75Carrera]

Thank you, Tony Good information. I didn't know about the need for 5 point at PCA DE events. As far as the shoulder belts being anchored on the bar without some sort of guide or different seat, I didn't quite see what you mean. The PCA would require race seats if you run and a 5 point harness belt? Yikes!

[mack6820]

I thought it depended on which track you ran on. I ran a DE at VIR and used the stock shoulder belts.

[Jack Olsen]

As a side note, most harnesses are not street legal.

[Bill Verburg]

Belts and seats are a system, to use racing 5 or 6 pt harness you need seats w/ integral guides and you want to keepthe webbing as short as possible w/ strictly limited angulation.
Like this


HMS has some great links to installation guides, read them.

[tonythetarga]

Originally Posted by mack6820

I thought it depended on which track you ran on. I ran a DE at VIR and used the stock shoulder belts.

Just to clarify. You can use race seats with normal 3 point belts (stock) but you cannot use harnesses without race seats.

On the harness bar. Bars are called "guide bars" because they are intended to guide the harness to the correct height for your shoulders to hold you in the seat. They are not intended as an anchor point for your harness. There may be harness bars that do both, but typically, they guide only.

There are clips available for your normal seat belts that keep the waist tension in place. Another good tip is to put you seat back 2 notches and tighten the belt. Then move the seat forward again and snug it right up against your body. This way the wratchet lock will not release and keep you snug in your seat.

[Bill Verburg]

As Jack noted, race harnesses are not street legal.

[BGCarrera32]

Originally Posted by 75Carrera

As far as the shoulder belts being anchored on the bar without some sort of guide or different seat, I didn't quite see what you mean.

Lashing the belts around a harness bar that simply bolts to the B pillars is generally not advisable. You have to realize how high the momentary G load can be on those belts and that bar in an impact- say you screamed into a barrier wall at 60 and came to an unpleasantly quick stop. That belt load could be upwards of 40g+ for a split second, and likely fold the harness bar into a V, negating the effectiveness of the belt which is designed to stretch ever so slightly (like 5-8%) and absorb the impact. People also never seem to realize that regardless of how *man-ly* they are, your chest cavity can deform and slip out right between the shoulder belts- pretty severe example obviously but it can happen and is why proper seats with guides are very important.

Use a harness bar to guide the belts through the seatback openings at the proper angle, and anchor the belts into the factory seat belt mounts for the rear seats. This is different than anchoring to a roll bar, where the roll bar is generally much stronger.

DO NOT:

use old belts (over 5 years, UV can degrade the material over time)
use 4 point belts... in a serious crash you can submarine under the lap belts
use 5 or 6 point belts with factory seats or seats that do not have cutout guides

If you can mimic Bill Verburg's picture you are on the right track.

Check out some of the info on the Simpson website for how to properly install and lash restraints.

http://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/products/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=344

I would personally recommend either Simpson or Schroth racing belts.

[rluciano]

There are some 4 point harnesses that are street legal. Schroth on their website says: "Schroth's Tuning line of belts offers the world's only aftermarket harnesses that meet the requirements of the DOT. " They say that their anti-submarining technology makes these safer than factory 3-pt belts. Is it that much better? I don't know, but I was considering them.

[Reaper930]

Schroth Profi III belts are DOT approved as is the Brey Krause Harness Truss to anchor them to...here's my setup (just added the BK B Pillar Brace System, need pics of that as well).

Just get fixed back seats with routing holes for the sub and shoulder staps and you're set to go.

[75Carrera]

Originally Posted by Jack Olsen

As a side note, most harnesses are not street legal.

Thank you Jack, I can see my desire for race belts is not going to work unless I want to change seats as well. And, even if one were to spring for that (++$$$) expense they may not be legal for the street? Seems odd that anyone would restrict use of a device designed to keep the passengers safe in a crash...

SO... are there replacements using the stock belt mounts and wider, stronger straps and quick release? All I want is to keep me in the car and reasonably in place if the unthinkable were to occur. The seat belt laws (hopefully) don't restrict having having the best belts you can do they? 3" replacements secured at the stock mounting points must be available somewhere....

[Deschodt]

Like others said, if not for the track, why bother... They are heavy, having them + the seat belts will make for tight spaces on each side of the seat, the harness attached to the harness bar is actually a liability in case of a rollover (snap your neck since your shoulders can't move), they will flap around when not in use, and as a side note, they have a limited shelf life...

some organizations won't let you run with such belts that are over x-years old (5, 10).... despite the fact they are super wide, solid, and only see the sun 10 times a year in my case... yet they will let you run with your 30 year old crappy twisted factory seatbelts ;-)

For the street, I'd invest in nicer seats with bigger bolsters and maybe one of those simple clips that "lock" the seatbelt in place tight.

[75Carrera]

My wrench suggested simply upgrading to newer belts out of a newer 911 on one of the dismantler lots. Probably a good suggestion.... The PCA rules don't seem to make sense do they?

[Jack Olsen]

I don't know if you could make the broad statement that 4-, 5- or 6-point harnesses are safer in every way than 3-point belts. Certainly they are when you also have a cage and a neck-restraint system. But part of the 3-point belt design is that a lot of body movement is allowed, which means your head doesn't snap forward and decelerate at a different rate than your body. It's hard to snap your neck with 3-point belts. It's much easier with a race harness.

[911Rips]

The Schroth 4 pt harness system with ASM, (anti submarine material) is set up with additional belt material stitched on the inboard harness belt that will release in and accident essentially making it a 3pt harness so that you do not submarine. These are street legal. This to me seemed like the way to go for mostly street use with great support for the occasional spirited run, or autoX where accepted. Check with HMS in Peabody, Ma. - they make the belts for you right there to your specs.

[ChrisBennet]

Donny,
Professionally Engineered Products aka PEP has new or rebuilt seatbelts for our cars at reasonable prices. New seatbelts are cheap insurance.

Shroth makes a harness model that incorporates something in one of the shoulder straps that tears away to make it longer in an accident. It might be just the thing for mountain runs but I doubt it will pass tech for a DE.

Normal 3 point seat belts let your body hang over both sides of the waist belt trapping it on your hips in an accident I believe. (Watch a video.)

Now suppose you add another shoulder belt and take away the give of a car seat belt. In an accident your upper body is held up right and inertia "pulls" on your legs causing the waist belt slide up off your hip bones onto your soft stomach. Not so good.

The antisubmarine strap(s) of a race harness hold that waist belt down on your hips in an accident.

-Chris

[75Carrera]

Thanks 911rips and Jack, Excellent points! (NO PUN)

and Chris... always good to hear from you. I'll look at the PEP site.