considering ownership but spooked

[Techne]

Is the consensus really becoming that a Z3 is cheaper and more reliable than a Carrera so he should stick with it? While complex for it's time, the 911 doesn't have nearly the amount of electrical wizardry to go wrong as the car ages.

I bought my 84 1.5 years ago. It isn't perfect, but has only needed tires and an alternator and I drive it every day as my only car. I think the Motronic fuel injection you get with a 3.2 is worth the minimally higher buy-in over an SC with CIS. I carry a cell phone and my AAA card, but who doesn't? Haven' t needed either yet.

I think you're just playing it safe - live a little! At least go drive one - there are tons for sale right now.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by Techne

Is the consensus really becoming that a Z3 is cheaper and more reliable than a Carrera so he should stick with it? While complex for it's time, the 911 doesn't have nearly the amount of electrical wizardry to go wrong as the car ages.

I bought my 84 1.5 years ago. It isn't perfect, but has only needed tires and an alternator and I drive it every day as my only car. I think the Motronic fuel injection you get with a 3.2 is worth the minimally higher buy-in over an SC with CIS. I carry a cell phone and my AAA card, but who doesn't? Haven' t needed either yet.

I think you're just playing it safe - live a little! At least go drive one - there are tons for sale right now.

As long as there are no expensive surprises, a Carrera is just about bullet proof.

Expensive surprises would include broken head studs, worn cams due to incorrect oil, excessive oil consumption, the need for a new clutch, worn syncros in the gear box, or deciding you really need to make the air conditioning work.

A good 911 will most likely have had a top end job by 125K, and new studs. It may or may not have fresh suspension components, but it should feel tight. It should shift out pretty smoothly, and not be graunchy or balky. It may or may not have upgrades, which I would want.

If you get a good one, that is well set up, and it suits you, you will be hooked for life.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

ONLY consider a Porsche if you can do your own work.

Let me say that again - ONLY consider a Porsche if you can do your own work.

This means you have a garage, or a friend with a garage, or access to a garage somewhere where/when you may need it. This means you have a decent set of metric hand tools (at a minimum). This means you're reasonably mechanically savvy and can find your way around an engine without it being like demystifying the Dead Sea Scrolls. This means you aren't afraid to research, learn and apply such knowledge to your own car.

If you depend on (paid) mechanics to keep your Porsche running at all times, double the annual cost of ownership. Right off the bat. You'd be utterly insane (IMHO) to ever do this.

The "cost" of P-car ownership is not the entry fee (that's reasonably affordable), it's the upkeep. If you pay someone else for this, you'll end up hating "that infernal money pit" in short order. If you DIY and only pay for parts occasionally, it's much more bearable, though still certainly not something I'd consider economical. You also need to consider the TIME (not just the money) it takes to do repairs, especially if you're depending on the car as your only means of getting around. BTDT - it really sucks when you have only one car, it's 8:00 on a Sunday night (before a work week), your car is in a hundred pieces and will take at least 5 hours to put back together or worse, you can't source a part you discover you need as you "get in there" and have no way to get it even if you could, because you've got the car in pieces and nobody's around to give you a ride down to the store.

P-cars are ONLY recommended for those who can do their own work and who don't mind having them be "INOP" occasionally.

[CMDR Perry]

Dr. Mitch be afraid, very afraid. My 911 SC is a white hole in the garage I pour money into. Jeff is correct the cost of entry (fixed) is not high, the cost of ownership of an old 911 (variable) rivals that of airplanes and large boats in my opinion. I do all my own work except machining parts to save money and have spent on average 25% of the purchase price of the car every year on maintenance and upgrades.

The one thing that drives me nuts is that some of the owners of SC's on this forum always try and drive down market values of the very car they own? For example someone says they want to sell their car for $16,000.00 and you get numerous people telling the seller its only worth $9,000.00 - 10,000.00. WTF is this about?

Read Wilkinson's book before you leap. Yes driving a 911 is fun but so is owning a lake cabin and they appreciate over time. Done venting now.

[Monza_dh]

Originally Posted by drmitch007

I truly appreciate the input. I'd done a little research prior to joining this forum so much of it I've heard/read before. I cycle through this very strong emotional longing/aching/desire for a Porsche and I guess I always hope I'm going to hear an abundance of arguments "proving" that getting one is a sensible thing for ME to do. But, it still sounds like the "evidence" tips towards this NOT being a great idea. I need more money than I've got to get into a car that's not going to be a major headache, I need more money than I've got put aside for inevitable issues, I need a reliable 15K mile per year daily driver, etc. It looks like keeping the Z3, which I love, don't get me wrong, and continuing to do upgrades in performance parts is the way to go. I'll continue to read this and see what else comes in though. Thanks!!!

[drmitch007]

There sure is a wide variety of opinion and advice. I think the first piece of advice I must take is...go drive one...or three...or six.

[dw1]

Originally Posted by drmitch007

Cliche, long-time dream of owning a 911, blah, blah, blah.

I am a one-car guy--don't have the money or space for a practical daily driver AND a toy.
.....
I KNOW I'll love the car...as long as it's not bleeding me dry at the mechanic.

This implies you don't do your own work, or much of it. So, let me ask the question a slightly different way - Would you buy and rely on any other 25+ year old car as a daily driver?

Things wear out. Any car this old, no matter how well it was made, has parts and systems that wear out and require replacement. If you do your own work (and buy parts from Pelican, of course) it is not excessively financially burdensome, but it still eats evenings, weekends, etc., not to mention the time the car is off the road.

However, if you rely on a mechanic to do the work, it is common to think that virtually any repair work on a 911 will cost $1000 or more.

Sure, it can be done, but for a dd, I would suggest something newer like a used Boxster, or even a 1999+ 911.

Seriously, search the prices for used "996" model type 911's and you may be pleasantly surprised.

[porschenut]

I think I'd strongly advise against a Boxster or a 996. Both cars are very difficult to work on by a home mechanic, and much more expensive at a professional shop, which is most likely going to be a dealer for those models.

The newer the Porsche you get, the more expensive will be the repair rates and the more difficult it will be to do the work yourself.

I relied on my '86 as my only car for 2 years, but it spent almost every weekday parked at the airport. It was reliable ONLY inasmuch as I spent a lot of time and $$$ keeping it that way.

[Walter_Middie]

My DD for the last 10 years has been a 1975 911 - the same car that DRMITCH is looking at. Everyone’s situation is different. Good advice here is only use a 911 for a DD if you:
Do your own maintenance
Don’t get stuck in stop-and-go traffic (the heavy clutch gets tiring)
Don’t need A/C, a radio, heat, defrost, etc.
I’m lucky. I have a short commute, and rarely get stuck in traffic. My car has been completely reliable, and I can’t image having a car with less repair cost. I rarely fix anything on the car because nothing ever breaks. I do however get cold in the winter, as the car doesn’t get hot until I arrive at work – and the defroster isn’t anything to brag about. I wouldn’t recommend a 911 as a DD for someone that isn’t used to old cars. Newer cars are definitely more convenient, but not as fun.

[drmitch007]

My schedule does not allow for home repairs. I'm on the road by 6 a.m. M-F, home at 7 p.m. and am usually on the road 2 or 3 Saturdays a month teaching seminars. I barely have time to eat, sleep, go to the gym and empty the trash so, as much as I might enjoy wrenching my own car and as willing as I'd be to do it, I simply do not have the time. I recently installed a throttle body position sensor on the Z and saved myself nearly $200 on the mechanic's quote but it was a 10 minute procedure that required taking out one screw and opening a clip after consulting the Bentley manual. I install bars and braces and minor mods and enjoy it but I would not, at this stage in life/lifestyle, have the ability to spend weekends in my garage working on a motor. So again, I am very grateful for the input of time and expertise from you all but it doesn't look good for my Porsche dream.

[drmitch007]

Rex: sounds great but I have a 50 mile round trip commute M-F and the 25 miles home is at 6 p.m. so I'm in wonderful stop-and-kinda-go L.A. traffic all the time.

The last truly old car I had was a 3 speed, Highland Green '67 Mustang coupe that was my DD from 1979 to 1984. I miss it to this day.

[look 171]

Dr. Mitch,

Go down to Van Nuys and talk to Dave at TRE. He's a old school P car wrench and are in the know someone with a car for sale from time to time. Real honest guy no BS. Many here would say the same thing. I would get a 3.0 or 3.2 car unless its a smoking deal in that 2.7 car.

[drmitch007]

Thanks, look 171. I'll do that. Might as well see what he's got to say.

[e p slick]

Originally Posted by dad911

Price? Pics?

Get a PPI from a good porsche mechanic, probably not a dealer.

Frankly, for a daily driver I would want at least a 964 or newer. (1990's and up)

I have a 1979 930 that is a daily driver.

But I do work at home.

EPS

[Hebrewhomeboy]

I have a '78 SC that I bought in very good condition, and so far the only expenses I've paid are oil changes that I do myself, and a tuneup, which I did myself (didn't take very long, and was surprisingly easy). I've had it a year and a half so far, and it has never once given me any trouble or issues of any kind. It was my only vehicle for about the first year or so, and I never really ran into any serious issues where it wasn't adequate enough to carry anything or whatnot. Personally, I'd say if you can get a 3.0 or 3.2 that's in great shape, and passes a PPI with flying colors, then go for it. They're very fun cars, dead-on reliable as long as you take care of them and just do the regular maintenence, and it'll put a smile on your face every time you drive it.

[Winter]

Well, since everyone else is throwing in their $0.02, I'll add mine.

I bought, on a whim, without knowing of this forum or the excellent advice here (like get a PPI FOR SURE!), a '75 targa. The car has an earlier 2.2 in it, some rust (of course) and had a lot of oil leaks. It was on Craig's List and I paid $3000 for it.

I drive this car almost every day, but I've also bashed my knuckles and cursed pretty loud fixing things on it and chasing down all the oil leaks. The next step will be an engine drop at some point to do the main seals, because I've fixed everything else I can without that kind of commitment.

Despite the fact that I trust the targa as a daily driver, I'd never use it for longer trips. I have another car, an Audi wagon, which is much better in some ways because I can haul a lot of stuff, I have heat in the winter and AC in the summer.

In other words, I'd never trust my 911 to be my only car. Never. And it wouldn't work for me because I do need the hauling capacity of the wagon regularly.

Interestingly enough, though, this summer the targa was a great back-up to the Audi when I was chasing down a mysterious oil leak on that car, and wasn't driving the wagon.

But the snow will come, and then the 911 is done. I like heat, and I like all-wheel drive. But that's because I live where I do. A lotta snow here. Your situation may be different. But I've found that rear wheel drive cars suck in snow, and there's no way I'd rely solely on one in Vail to get around, even with snow tires.

I'd suggest that you keep saving up your cash and keep looking. You may find a drivable "fixer-upper" that could be a second car for you, something to enjoy on the weekends and invest in when you have the time and cash.

Good luck.

---

Tom '75 targa

[burgermeister]

If you are honestly planning on driving a 35 year old car (or even a 20 year old one) as a daily driver, without a backup, you're crazy or looking for trouble.

My 911 has been the most fun car I've owned by far, and a tie for the most fun I've ever driven, period (I'd rate it even with an '08 Z06 Corvette). But it has also cost me the most time and dollars per mile driven of anything I've ever owned, and by a factor of 3 or 4. If I didn't do my own wrenching, I'd have to sell it.

[Hebrewhomeboy]

What kind of condition did you buy your car in? Mine's 10 years older than yours and has cost me very minimal (other than gas, it is a bit of a thirsty car.)

[80-911SC]

drive your daily until you can afford a toy, an older 911 is not a daily driver ( for everyone ) and as others have said they are for the most part not the cheapest cars to keep running, i was putting in a lot of hours at work this summer and was quoted 1600 dollars for an oil and filter change with a valve adjust from a p shop ; wound up doing it my self for about 300 with tranny swepco fluid change. my car was out of commission 3 weekends by the time i was done but that ways 3-4 hrs on Sundays only (i am not a mechanic) i am mechanical and found most of the info i needed on the forum and had the lap top in the garage thru the process.

this could be a perfect opportunity to say thank you to the board, thank you... .

[dw1]

Originally Posted by porschenut

I think I'd strongly advise against a Boxster or a 996. Both cars are very difficult to work on by a home mechanic, and much more expensive at a professional shop, which is most likely going to be a dealer for those models...

The point is that the newer cars won't need as much work.

Sure, they are more complicated than the old Carrera 3.2's & SC's, but not more complicated than a newer car like a Z3.

In fact, sometimes the newer cars are easier to diagnose, thanks to ODB-II.

It's also likely they've passed through fewer owners than the older cars, and thus have fewer chances for repair screw-ups, poor maintenance, track abuse, etc.

The shop that I use (for the kind of things I can't do myself due to lack of the proper equipment, like alignment and corner balancing) certainly works on the newer Porsches and charges the same hourly rate for both.

Would I use my '87 3.2 as a dd? No.

But a well-maintained 996 or 997? My current dd is a 1996 car with close to 150k miles - my trusty Saab 900SE turbo coupe. Yes, it is much more complicated than my Porsche, but rock-solid reliable and with the small amount of extra boost I'm running, the high-performance exhaust, and good tires, it's quite entertaining. When it is finally used up, and my kids are finally out of college... yeah, I could live with a 996 or 997 as a dd.