Experts.. what would you do? Engine?

[911lvr]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

im planning on being there in my M3 (porsche is up on jack stands) but not sure. Going to a huge birthday bash tonight!

well if you are there look for a very confused looking dude.. that will be me..lol

[911lvr]

Originally Posted by Rouxzy

911lvr,
Being a fellow '77 Targa owner I was once in your position. I ran mine for about 125k miles with all the proper updates, and all original head studs. It was time for a rebuild because I was blowing oil out pretty bad. The machine work alone to do it right was alot of money. Bottom line for the same price as a proper rebuild of the 2.7 I was able to put in a completely rebuilt 3.6. Granted I was at the right place at the right time to score this 3.6. It is not cheap to properly rebuild a 2.7 due to the machine work, so if you can still drive yours around start looking for another engine. My advice is if you are thinking of a 3.2, why not just put in a 3.6? You will have a light car with a beast in the back.
Tom

Tom,

What kind of things did you need to change to slap the 3.6 in there?

Thanks

Marc

[911lvr]

small update: I cleaned up the bottom of the engine, Added (yeah get this 5 qts of oil and its still not full) oil, and have the battery on the charger for now. Hopefully, later on I can turn this thing over and see what happens. Once, I get it started then i can do the compression/leak down test.

[911pcars]

Yes. Suggest the compression test to confirm integrity of the engine. If good, then hunt down the source of the oil leak.

There are plenty of places on top of the engine that can leak oil onto the bottom of the engine; many not too expensive to repair (e.g. oil pressure/temp switches, oil breather hose/cover, valve cover, cam box oil lines, etc.).

You'll have a better idea of the direction to go after performing these initial inspections.

Sherwood

[tevake]

Is this your first 9!!, if so you should read here about checking and topping off the oil. You don't want to over fill.

Good luck
Richard

[Targalid]

Were I you, I would completely drain the oil and fill the correct amount. Your oil is almost certainly over full and will smoke like crazy when the oil tank fills and starts flowing oil into the air intake. How do I know? Don't ask.

[911lvr]

So even tho when I checked the oil and it did not even register on the dipstick and after 5 qts it just hit the min mark, your saying its probably over full? and i have to ask how do you know?

Im all for changing the oil entire and will do so, I just wanted to get enough in there to see if I can get the engine to turn over and to check for where the leaks are. im not planning on driving around with it this way.

[Flat Six]

Nothing personal brother; just trying to keep you from making the same mistake many others have. 911 is a quirky beast -- dry sump, external cooler(s) and reservoir mean dipstick is accurate only when checked under proper conditions (warm, idling, on flat & level surface). Otherwise you'll overfill and get a sticky goopy mess, and blow oil into the intake at various (and difficult to clean) locations.

Based on what I've read you haven't got her running yet, correct? If not then you really don't know how much oil is actually in the system. Tevake and Targalid are both giving you very solid and well-intentioned advice -- that's why it's important to drain both case and reservoir and refill accordingly (many threads here to help you w/proper procedure to avoid mistakes).

We understand you're an experienced wrench. But you're here asking for feedback because you don't have much 911 experience -- why ignore it?

HTH

Dale

[911lvr]

Dale, im not taking it personally. That is the trouble with posting, you cant tell the tone of voice. I was honestly asking. I like to understand the reasons for things so I can figure out how things work.

I was just curious as to why the dipstick is wouldnt be an accurate reading. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

looks like I ll drain it all and then start over.

Thanks

Marc

[Flat Six]

Good deal. Lots of folks who come here for advice are just looking for the "what to do" and not really the "why that way instead of this way" kind of response; I'll try to do better.

I don't recall from your other post; did the PO leave you with an owner's manual and/or Bentley? Lot's of help there on the peculiarities of the 911, especially for a dedicated gearhead ;-)

[NOLAsc]

Originally Posted by 911lvr

Note the sealant on the tubes..nice huh?

Wow. If only it were that easy to fix oil leaks.

My PO or, more likely, PPO's mechanic, must have tried silicone for gaskets. Here's the thermostat hole.



I found cellophane-thin bits of clear stuff in too many places to be comfortable last time I had the engine out. But nothing seems blocked.

And on the oil level thing... yeah gotta be checked warm at idle. If you change the oil and re-fill it (dino, not synthetic), search for how many quarts to start with -- or someone please chime in. As I recall it's like nine to start and then warm up and check at the stick??? I'd look for confirmation from experts on that.

Shawn

[911lvr]

another update: I had the battery on the charger for the day and it was just toast. So off I went to get the new battery. Installed the battery and the gages all lit up. good, thats something. headlights work. good. you have to take the little things where you can..lol and so on to the final test. does it turn over? YUP I took car of the oil as well when I was out getting the battery so based on the other thread, I think im good there. So it turns over but wont start, At least its progress. However, turning this engine over a few times and it already started leaking. and its new oil leaking. It look like mainly its coming from between the cylinders and the heads. Im not sure what the stud sticking out are rigth at the bottom of the head, they almost look like a zerk fitting. Basically, they are all covered in oil already from just turning the engine over. Pics to follow.

I do have a question, what do you guys think the validity of doing a compression check on a cold engine would be? I know they are supposed to be warm when you do it. do you think it would just be way off and not even worth doing? If its ok I can do it now and know if I should keep messing with it. If not, then I have to start hunting down, spark, fuel, air mixtures, crank sensor, etc.

So pics of the leaks so far..

drop between the head and cylinder


Oil around those strange studs..not sure if its leaking from them or between the head and cyl right above it.

[911lvr]

Originally Posted by Flat Six

Good deal. Lots of folks who come here for advice are just looking for the "what to do" and not really the "why that way instead of this way" kind of response; I'll try to do better.

I don't recall from your other post; did the PO leave you with an owner's manual and/or Bentley? Lot's of help there on the peculiarities of the 911, especially for a dedicated gearhead ;-)

unfortunately I have no manuals for this car. Im going to have to buy the bentley ones for it soon.

[j911brick]

Cold compression test is OK, and better than nothing. Most the tests I have done has been on cold motors.

[2.70Racer]

The "strange studs" are air injectors minus the manifold to the smog air pump.
I'd leave them in until you are ready to replace with plugs.
If you need to pass smog where you live you'll need a few more parts.

[911pcars]

"However, turning this engine over a few times and it already started leaking. and its new oil leaking. It look like mainly its coming from between the cylinders and the heads."

There are no oil paths between the cylinders and the cylinder heads, thus the oil could be dripping from above or somewhere else. Follow the suggestions and clean/remove existing oil from the engine exterior, then crank engine while observing top and bottom of engine to ID the source of the oil leak.

While it may be common to perform a cold compression test, it's also less accurate, but it's better than speculating (guessing).

Sherwood

[911lvr]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

"However, turning this engine over a few times and it already started leaking. and its new oil leaking. It look like mainly its coming from between the cylinders and the heads."

There are no oil paths between the cylinders and the cylinder heads, thus the oil could be dripping from above or somewhere else. Follow the suggestions and clean/remove existing oil from the engine exterior, then crank engine while observing top and bottom of engine to ID the source of the oil leak.

While it may be common to perform a cold compression test, it's also less accurate, but it's better than speculating (guessing).

Sherwood

thanks I did spend some time cleaning the engine up with degreaser. I just cant figure out where its coming from. I guess ill look higher per your suggestion. Thanks

[911lvr]

last update for the night..So I got it to run..well sort of. I was sorting out what was going on and the spark was there so I checked the fuel. I can spray some fuel in the top of the air cleaner and it will run for as long as the fuel in there lasts. so it would appear i have a fuel problem. so tomorrow I will be checking fuel pump, relay, DME relay, fuel filter, fuel accumulator, and such. Any other quirky things I should check into while im diagnosing?

Thanks for all the help so far. Once, I get it running I can do the accurate compression test and then continue to track down oil leaks.

[gsmith660]

2.7 motor no DME relay to fiddle with check the fuel pump runs by taking off the air filter and push up on the air flow meter arm with the key on you will here the pump come on and go off when you let it down you can also here the injectors spraying fuel. I would check the fuel filter and hook up a gauge and check fuel pressure by the rear relay panel there is a spade connector that is I think brown/black wire that when it is unplugged the pump runs continuously good luck.

[Grady Clay]

Originally Posted by 911lvr

another update:
…
However, turning this engine over a few times and it already started leaking. and its new oil leaking. It look like mainly its coming from between the cylinders and the heads.
….

Marc,

If fresh oil is coming from between the head and cylinder, that is a sign that there is a head (gasket) leak – usually from pulled or loose cylinder head studs and nuts.

When the engine sat, some of the oil drained back into the engine and some eventually found its way into cylinders.
As soon as you cranked the engine, the compression forced some out past leaking head gaskets (CE rings).

I suspect you can get the engine running with this condition.
You will have compression leaks.
The good side is that you can then better diagnose the condition.

When you have the valve covers off, take the long end of a 10 mm Allen wrench and see if any of the 24 head nuts turn with ‘finger pressure’.
If any turn, you probably have a head stud issue.

If you tighten the nuts (following the Factory procedure), do not tighten them to full spec.
If any continue turning even a bit without getting tighter, STOP.
You are just pulling the magnesium threads in the crankcase.

A cranking compression test will give you some useful information.
A cylinder leak test will tell you more – you will hear the air escaping between the cylinder and head.
You will also get more accurate results after the engine has run a bit, blowing out the excess oil.

Best,
Grady

PS: Great pictures, keep them coming.
G.