I make Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condensers for 911's front and rear

[KelogGes]

to let people simply know that you do not need to spend a ton of money on your 911 to make your A/C system cold

The TRUTH IS THAT Any 911 owner by just simply replacing their old 911 Porsche OEM old tube and fin type obsolete technology condensers, or anyother types to much newer technology state of the art parallel flow micro channel condensers front and rear you will reap a vast improvement in greatly lowered a/c air vent temps and making your 911 cold.

THESE ARE FACTS!

Spending a lot of your hard earned money Changing your A/C components, i.e. hoses, evaporator and/or your compressor if they “currently ALL WORK PROPERLY as originally designed”, although replacing these components might give limited improvement to your 911, regardless to what anyone might tell you “these things do not need to be replaced” they can continue to be used!!!

My successful extensive testing proved this last year repeatedly getting constant, just about freezing 34-36 F ice cold vent temps in all kinds of driving conditions (without evap icing) , even during 95F degree ambient temps in 99 % humidity heat index of 160 F / 71 C , where I live in THE TROPICS of Fort Lauderdale

However these stated very low temps were reached by using a succession of several different component optimizations and well known 911 A/C tricks and not just changing condensors.

I manufacture custom made new technology state of the art PF condensers; I am not trying to sell anything here I am trying to be helpful to 911 owners!!!
I will make my PFC’s available here at Pelican very soon to the public

[tazzieman]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

I manufacture custom made new technology state of the art PF condensers; I am not trying to sell anything here I am trying to be helpful to 911 owners!!!
I will make my PFC’s available here at Pelican very soon to the public

You could have fooled me. lol
You need to write 5 good paragraphs of concise , plain English ad copy, not uber long rambly perseverative sentences .
I'm trying to be helpful , even though I'm not personally interested in A/C

[KelogGes]

Thermodynamics can be fun to think about sometimes and thinking outside the box!

Thank You Kuehl for enlightening the thread related to a/c Black Death and Line Filters

I would like to ask you to share your vast knowledge related to the possibility of completely removing the early 911 models rear deck lid a/c condenser and only using condensers in available other body cavities.

I don’t think this has ever been successfully accomplished and still been able to get decent a/c temps to my knowledge from what I have read over many years of reading and discussing with others related to early model 911's?

Also have you ever tried or know if anyone else has OR even thought about, running the compressor high pressure outlet line FIRST to the front lip condenser before returning it to the rear deck lid condenser?

marine engineers do it different in water

[orange911]

Reid, if your patent pending condensers were getting temps in the low 30's, why build something NEW? And the idea of making it secret is hilarious. Earlier posts you said that they were so great that you had to make them smaller than oem. So are we suppose to waste more money buying something NEW that makes it 90% efficient verses 89%? Well, I have gone from being very interested to very doubtful as I read through your posts trying to defend "your" product. I think it was a mistake on your part to start this thread without fully testing you setup with an oem, such as the way Griffiths did. And I have yet to hear from any one owner that had it installed on their car. If you want credibility, send one to someone like TLG, and let them report on it. For me, this is like snake oil st this point.

[SilberUrS6]

And, it's laughable to suggest that the old hoses don't need to be replaced. They leak! And they leak even faster with R134a.

Of course you have to change stuff out, and not just the condensers. LOL.

Reid is the PP solution to Slap-Chop Vince.

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by orange911

Reid, if your patent pending condensers were getting temps in the low 30's, why build something NEW? And the idea of making it secret is hilarious. Earlier posts you said that they were so great that you had to make them smaller than oem. So are we suppose to waste more money buying something NEW that makes it 90% efficient verses 89%? Well, I have gone from being very interested to very doubtful as I read through your posts trying to defend "your" product. I think it was a mistake on your part to start this thread without fully testing you setup with an oem, such as the way Griffiths did. And I have yet to hear from any one owner that had it installed on their car. If you want credibility, send one to someone like TLG, and let them report on it. For me, this is like snake oil st this point.

I can understand your feelings and You and others are of course always entitled to your opinion

You guys seem to miss a very important point; I have not sold any of my PFC’s to the general public anywhere yet! I have been talking to Scott at Pelican for their possible distribution but nothing is finalized yet. I have a well known a/c company that’s been trying to buy for me for a year.

The sales I have done so far have been very controlled and mostly local to me on purpose, and I have released only 2 other installations than my own installations publically, and have several people waiting! My current plan is to continue to do several more installations locally to me for now and release them publically with the owners and Stokes Automotive permission which will be done by Stokes Automotive (who I do not work for and independent from). I had 35-40 people last year who seriously contacted me to sell them them from here I intentionally put ON HOLD and told them to wait until I was ready to sell them to them. The sales I will be doing in the near future will also be very controlled.

I am only one person with no employees at this time, slowly and very carefully bringing to the world something new I designed for 911 a/c cooling, you have to crawl before you walk and this is exactly doing what I am doing!

I currently have several local 911 owners lined up in the wings to do their installs, I have already made 2 owners different matched sets for their PFC’s installations for them I have released to the public, and I am waiting for several 911 owers who have contact me to be brought into the shop for installation, and Stokes Automotives will also probably have other than the 911 owners I will refer to them for installation, some of their regular customers that want my PFC’s also and I will publish these installations; and also with the owner’s permission on a case by case basis if appropriate we allow people who are more than seriously interested communicate with these owners and/or with Stokes Automotive if needed.

The last thing I am going to do “at this moment” is send my PFC’s out where various potential competitors can get public access to my technologies at this time!

Unfortunately You have no idea of all the things I have going on in the background related to many things and I am doing, I am also going to leave you that way sometimes until the proper time I decide to release it!

It’s very unfortunate how limited I am forced to be about talking about some things to both you and the other readers here and EVEN MORE to ME; because I am legally bound & prohibited from talking about several things with my hands tied due to signed confidentiality agreement contracts with a well known Porsche a/c company, who has had and already installed and successfully tested some of my PFC’s a year ago that wants an exclusive for ONE of my product lines, I had intentionally put on hold while I develop and prototyped several other different similar types of product lines so there would not be a conflict between them, which I have now recently completed which has furthermore lead to even more new product lines.

What I think is kind of hilarious is your thinking “why build something NEW”, then state “this is like snake oil this point”, and a bit less humorous narrowly thinking I am only doing ONE thing related to heat exchangers for 911’s, just because I have not said anything you have read, and that I must do things like Griffiths does/did or others. I guess you missed me saying here several times I AM ON A DIFFERENT PATH!

Kind regards,

Reid

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

to let people simply know that you do not need to spend a ton of money on your 911 to make your A/C system cold

The TRUTH IS THAT Any 911 owner by just simply replacing their old 911 Porsche OEM old tube and fin type obsolete technology condensers, or anyother types to much newer technology state of the art parallel flow micro channel condensers front and rear you will reap a vast improvement in greatly lowered a/c air vent temps and making your 911 cold.

Have some compassion for those that are financially struggling in this economy !!!

Under this premise I believe what I said is valid!

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Thermodynamics can be fun to think about sometimes and thinking outside the box! Thank You Kuehl for enlightening the thread related to a/c Black Death and Line Filters. I would like to ask you to share your vast knowledge related to the possibility of completely removing the early 911 models rear deck lid a/c condenser and only using condensers in available other body cavities. I don’t think this has ever been successfully accomplished and still been able to get decent a/c temps to my knowledge from what I have read over many years of reading and discussing with others related to early model 911's? Also have you ever tried or know if anyone else has OR even thought about, running the compressor high pressure outlet line FIRST to the front lip condenser before returning it to the rear deck lid condenser?
.........marine engineers do it different in water

Frankly,
I can't say I have a "vast" knowledge about deletion of the deck lid condenser as you have described, but we do have experience with clients
whom have done this.... deleting the deck lid condenser, using the Kuehl condensers in the LH rear fender and the front condenser; usually done on turbo or supercharger applications. This can be done for
'up to...' certain ambient temperatures and naturally depending upon whether the car is a coupe or cabriolet, white vs. black. We have been testing our new condenser layout that does delete the deck-lid condenser and uses our Kuehl condensers outside of the deck lid, however it does not make sense to "talk" about it until its completed... capice!

And, no, I never heard of anyone running the circuit from the compressor to front of the car and then back to the rear deck lid and back to the front of the car again. Unless you plan on moving the evaporator and air distribution system to the engine compartment or rear seat.... that would require an additional hose length of approximately 16 feet or more.


On another note: if you want to help the readers here, discussing 1 topic "PF designs" then try to keep the subject in one thread rather than re-post the same stuff over and over.

================================================== ======

Originally Posted by kuehl

Reid,

Sorry dude. You crossed the line, and you are not factual.
Most readers on the forum know better however you have posted some opinions which could confuse a newbie and lead them down the wrong path.

“Porsche 911 A/C CONDENSER Efficiency! IS the best key to making COLD A/C!
Everything Else is secondary !!!
That is like saying bigger tires are better, and forget about the rest of the suspension.

“I also have done test differences of Griffiths serpentine evap.”
And, your own empirical data ?

“A Modified (TX) Thermal Expansion Valve"
And the data of superheat difference and how it was arrived at?


“Changing to serpentine technology condensers, which offers only a slight improvement over tube and fin technology”. WRONG.
The performance of any condenser is related to its overall characteristics to remove the heat. Simply having more channels, multiple circuits (paths), thinner walls, whether the design is tube and fin, serpentine, multi-pass serpentine, piccolo, 6mm piccolo, parallel flow, multi-flow or the latest and greatest 11 mm wide micro-channel mult-pass parallel flow does not make it an improvement if the overall system is not optimized. There are plenty of studies that show
there is a limit to the maximum performance of PF condensers vs. serpentine, in some applications a PF will perform better, however if its going to be in a place where things "shake, rattle and roll", it won't last long. So its NOT all about about wishful performance. It does not make sense to have the highest performance gadget if it breaks down on you in the middle of no where. This would be like tightening down the spring on the waste gate and failing to address AFR’s and strength of the lower end. Of all the condenser designs that have come to pass the serpentine design is the most reliable due to its wall thickness and least amount of brazed joints. I have seen more parallel flow condensers, as well as evaporators sharing the design (plate and fin), as introduced with the Boxster and 996, fail simply because the walls are too thin, making them subject to leakage due to oxidation , and breakage due to the greater number of braze joints. The key to a successful product is not simply newer technology, rather its selection of the correct technology for the application. And, on a side note: if you are rationalizing that all car manufacturer's have switched from either tube and fin, or serpentine to PF's simply because there is a gain in performance ? Think again. The cost produce PF's is less, for 2 reasons: a change in manufacturing techniques and less materials.
The car manufacturer knows the new car owner will not be keeping that car forever: most vehicles today are leased or sold within a few years, so overall "life" or reliability of the PF is not a priority. Cost is their priority.


“Changing your A/C components, i.e. hoses, evaporator and/or your compressor if they “currently ALL WORK PROPERLY as originally designed”, regardless to what anyone might tell you “these things do not need to be replaced” they can continue to be used!!!” WRONG.
The 911 and 930 have nearly 40 feet of non-barrier hose. The hoses leaked (permeated) the day they rolled off the ‘hand built’ assembly line, and after 20 years the leakage rate is not less. If a car owner wants to recharge his system every other month or year and that becomes a bugaboo then the logical solution is to replace all the hoses with barrier hoses.

And, since they plated the steel hose fittings with zinc, and zinc oxidizes and accelerates the formation of rust on steel, you might as well replace all the o-rings since they degrade with the process, and you might as well use a an HNBR R134a compatible elastomer.

The systems prior to the 964 did not have a low or high pressure switch to protect the system, so you might as well add the feature when you repair or upgrade the system to help protect the compressor.

You should replace the drier if its old or your are changing to a different type of refrigerant oil.

The early 911/930 had insufficient vents, you might as well add more.

A 25 year old evaporator typically does need to have is fins cleaned and if you have an 86+ evaporator chances are 9 out of 10 if its not leaking now it will be soon because the design used to bond a copper manifold to aluminum tubes simply did not work (wander over to the 928 forum and read about evaporator failure), so you might as well replace the failure-prone or old evaporator with something smarter in design and performance such as a serpentine unit, does not make sense to spend time and money improving the condenser function while not addressing the other side of the system.

Using a compressor with aluminum bores, aluminum pistons and aluminum wobble plate with 80,000 plus miles on it, which has run for 20 years with low refrigerant/oil levels, is going to ‘grenade’, ‘lock-up’, ‘freeze’, and fall apart as soon as you start using it with your new parallel flow condenser, at which point you will have to remove half of the hoses in the car, remove the evaporator and disassemble the TEV, liquid flush the lines, toss the drier, and liquid flush the tube and fin or serpentine condensers. If you have a parallel flow condenser you might as well toss that out too simply because studies have stated they are extremely difficult to flush out (forget about the in line filter, its been discussed).

While your working on the evaporator and your wiggling the thermostatic sensor tube for its hundredth time, and it breaks, your system won’t operate. While your taking that long awaited vacation trip cross country, and the evaporator blower or front condenser blower motor (which still may be lacking a fuse) motor fries up, who you gonna call? So... “... not Spending a lot of your hard earned money (or time) and Changing your A/C components”, is what?


“However these stated very low temps were reached by using a succession of several different component optimizations and well known 911 A/C tricks”.
I won’t get into the oxymoron, but if your objective in this thread is to deliver a simple solution (just a condenser) to a client then there is no “trick”. The fundamentals of refrigeration and heat transfer are not secrets.


“I am not trying to sell anything here ...... I will make my PFC’s available here at Pelican very soon to the public”
OK. I think that’s great. But, stick to the facts.

[KelogGes]

Thank you kuehl for replying to my 2 questions , your knowledge regarding this is just fine and answered my questions with good honest answers!

The reason I asked you the question about deleting the rear deck lid condenser is because I have had several people with normally aspirated early model 911s telling me they are adamant wanting to delete their rear deck lid condenser and run only on a single fender unit and/or a maybe an additional front lip condenser and get acceptable cold temps, and I have told them I thought they were dreaming, especially if they are intending use in high ambient temp areas, i.e. above 90F PLUS so I wanted to try to make sure I was giving correct info, and you have confirmed I am, so thank you very much!

My second question to you was unrelated to my first and I know was a little odd because of some very strange high pressure lines being what seems like crazy re-routing

I had a strong feeling you would tell me you have no knowledge related to my second question but you never know so this is why I asked.

I am sure you have seen me say from time to time I think outside the box, this is one of those times I am thinking outside the box. This might be a stupid crazy group of thinking that may be useless I have had that has brought me to a conclusion; but I have found sometimes my crazy thinking in my life can lead to some interesting breakthroughs in doing something very simple that is different than normally done because no one ever thought about it different and was over looked for ages that is actually beneficial.


Twist your head and think about this for a moment thermodynamically;

if the high pressure high temp line is routed first directly into a metal heat exchanging metal tube line exposed to air runs and then goes next forward to the far distant front condenser and/or either a front lip condenser or say i.e. one of your fender/bumper type units and whatever blower fans can be used to facilitate the heat exchange aspect in these much cooler ambient air temp areas first (compared to the very hot engine compartment) and this line pre-cooled in a much cooler area then at first normally is;

then ran all the way back to the rear again to the largest condenser in the engine compartment wouldn’t this pre-cooled high pressure line condense even faster and/or better and even further when back to rear deck lid condenser before/or as it next goes again forward as a heat exchanging metal liquid tube line to the filter dryer and evaporator?

note: temporary regular hoses with hose clamps could be quickly tried using regular fittings to prove or disprove this

It would be interesting to see your reply, as for me I really do not know the answer to this question until someone tries this but I think this may have merit?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

I have been talking to Scott at Pelican for their possible distribution but nothing is finalized yet. I have a well known a/c company that’s been trying to buy for me for a year.

If Scott is smart (and no doubt he is smart), your condensers will not be sold through Pelican.

If you were smart, you'd take the buyout offer.

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

If Scott is smart (and no doubt he is smart), your condensers will not be sold through Pelican.

If you were smart, you'd take the buyout offer.

don’t you have anything better to do with your life then sit in this tread for a year day after day you have no interest in, never talk about anything useful or on topic and also taking everything I say here no matter what is about and quoting it and reproduce it and flood this tread with your useless drivel and constantly making negative comment about me?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

don’t you have anything better to do with your life then sit in this tread for a year day after day you have no interest in, never talk about anything useful or on topic and also taking everything I say here no matter what is about and quoting it and reproduce it and flood this tread with your useless drivel and constantly making negative comment about me?

Surely, how I use my time is of no concern to you.

I have offered you some very valuable advice, free of charge. Advice that could make your endeavors profitable for you, and help for the Porsche community. And until you can provide some sort of data to back up your dubious claims, I will continue to point out the flaws in your approach, AND suggest that folks seek other solutions for their AC problems.

I suppose you could pay me to not post in these threads - I'd be happy to let others post the very same questions, and not add my voice. But your offer will have to be in the range of a new Duel Kuehl system for my Carrera. Yeah, that would be about the right price. PM me to get my PayPal account number so I can get the funds from you ASAP.

Seriously - start a blog somewhere, and stop mooching off Wayne's good nature in your marketing pursuits. Sheesh - the least you can do is become a paid advertiser to defray his website costs.

[Wayne 962]

Folks,

I'm okay with people developing products here with the ultimate goal of bringing them to market - as long as they are ultimately carried in the Pelican catalog. Although I haven't read this thread in its entirety, there have been social gaffs on both sides here. I would recommend to *everyone* here to review their posts prior to posting and ask themselves if it provides a positive addition to the tech forum or not.

-Wayne

[KelogGes]

Thank You So Much Wayne!

[KelogGes]

Air Powered Vacuum Pump with R134A and R12 Connectors

DIY very cheap harbor freight vacuum pump has the capability to properly evacuate your A/C system pulling vacuum down to very acceptable levels to remove any moisture in your A/C system, and works excellent for pulling a vacuum for many applications

BTW: these little puppies can also be found on Ebay even cheaper and I have also seen them there including refridgerationi manifold gauges with hoses

To make this device work you will need a large enough compresser and if you dont have one you probably can go to a gastation or talk to your friends, these little tire pump compressors that plugs into your cars 12 volt receptical are too small. You need a compressor that can produce about 4 cfm.

(Note: check your local refrigeration laws before using this devise as it may be illegal in some places)

I have Federal EPA refridgeration licenses and use only EPA certified equipment; I wont tell you how to use this device, figure it out for yourself.




Air Vacuum Pump with R134A and R12 Connectors

venturi-type AC vacuum pump removes moisture from air conditioning systems so you can safely add refrigerant.

This vacuum pump is easy to operate, just connect an air line and the pump pulls full vacuum within 2 minutes.


This vacuum pump is ideal for automotive air conditioners, home air conditioners, refrigerators, freezers, and more!
•Includes 1/2" ACME (R134a) and R12 connectors
•Vacuum level: 28.3" of mercury at sea level
•Pump air consumption: 4.2 CFM @ 90 PSI
•Air inlet: 1/4''-18 NPT
Overall dimensions: 8-3/8" L X 5" W X 6-1/2" H

[brads911sc]

They are crap. Don't work at all. If you are going to work on your system more than 1x every three years... spend the $200 and buy a real vacuum. NO professional would ever recommend one of these vacuums. Recommending this Turd only harms your credibility, Reid. I had one, threw it away after the first use... also if you don't have compressed air, you cant use this at all... Is this what you use to test your new product? I sure hope not! if someone is buying a $30 vacuum, they may not have compressed air. You get what you pay for. Learned that with the Griffith experience...

Again, if I was you id stop jumping all over the place and focus on your primary product. Stop posting until you have something...

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Air Powered Vacuum Pump with R134A and R12 Connectors

DIY very cheap harbor freight vacuum pump has the capability to properly evacuate your A/C system pulling vacuum down to very acceptable levels to remove any moisture in your A/C system, and works excellent for pulling a vacuum for many applications

BTW: these little puppies can also be found on Ebay even cheaper and I have also seen them there including refridgerationi manifold gauges with hoses

To make this device work you will need a large enough compresser and if you dont have one you probably can go to a gastation or talk to your friends, these little tire pump compressors that plugs into your cars 12 volt receptical are too small. You need a compressor that can produce about 4 cfm.

(Note: check your local refrigeration laws before using this devise as it may be illegal in some places)

I have Federal EPA refridgeration licenses and use only EPA certified equipment; I wont tell you how to use this device, figure it out for yourself.




Air Vacuum Pump with R134A and R12 Connectors

venturi-type AC vacuum pump removes moisture from air conditioning systems so you can safely add refrigerant.

This vacuum pump is easy to operate, just connect an air line and the pump pulls full vacuum within 2 minutes.


This vacuum pump is ideal for automotive air conditioners, home air conditioners, refrigerators, freezers, and more!
•Includes 1/2" ACME (R134a) and R12 connectors
•Vacuum level: 28.3" of mercury at sea level
•Pump air consumption: 4.2 CFM @ 90 PSI
•Air inlet: 1/4''-18 NPT
Overall dimensions: 8-3/8" L X 5" W X 6-1/2" H

[wwest]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

They are crap. Don't work at all. If you are going to work on your system more than 1x every three years... spend the $200 and buy a real vacuum. NO professional would ever recommend one of these vacuums. Recommending this Turd only harms your credibility,

Reid. I had one, threw it away after the first use


"..threw it away.."....why, what was the problem, shortcoming...?

also if you don't have compressed air

Everyone needs a source of compressed air...


you cant use this at all... Is this what you use to test your new product? I sure hope not! if someone is buying a $30 vacuum, they may not have compressed air. You get what you pay for. Learned that with the Griffith experience...

Again, if I was you id stop jumping all over the place and focus on your primary product. Stop posting until you have something...

On the other hand why would you need a vacuum pump at all...? So, your 911 A/C refrigerant leaks down by next spring, just as long as it doesn't get to zero there is no way for the "atmosphere" to get in. Just buy 1 or 2 cans of R134a, with the low side pressure guage included, and recharge the system DIY.

[wwest]

As I said, EVERYONE needs a (transportable) source of compressed air...



Compressor, Harbor Freight, ~$40.

[SilberUrS6]

Pulling a good vacuum on the system beforehand is VERY important. Griffith's site provide the temp/pressure graph for the boiling point of water, and it requires a lot of vacuum, held for a long time, to get all the incidental water out of the system, *including* that amount adsorbed to the drier material. I have no idea what drier material GTI uses, but if it were molecular sieve (for example), it would take a lab vacuum at least an hour working at it's highest operating vacuum (new oil, all the fittings checked) to get the stuff to be 95% water-free. It would then take another hour to get down to 97%. And another hour to get to 98%. Etc.

Now let's talk about the volume of the 911 system - because the length of hose is so large, the volume to pump is larger, too. And the time required for a really good pump is a cube function of the volume pumped.

Removing the surface-adsorbed water from the system is not a trivial task.

[brads911sc]

The interface between vacuum device and refrigerant is less than optimal. hose switches, empty refrigerant hoses not exposed to the vacuum, leaves alot of margin for error and reentry of air into your system. i suppose its possible. but not likely.

Try running a vacuum pump for the hour plus recommended (based on the length of hose and components we have)... with one of these Reid shows and your air supply. Rennaire recommends two hours on a pump... good luck with that... you will run out of air long before you really have a good vacuum. I let my vacuum pump run for 2-3 hours so i am sure to get a good vacuum that is truly is a good vacuum. I then let it sit over night. Often Ill have to vacuum another 2 hours to truly get it all.... again.. try to do that with your air supply or that vacuum device.

Guess its good you live in the pacific northwest.

Originally Posted by wwest

On the other hand why would you need a vacuum pump at all...? So, your 911 A/C refrigerant leaks down by next spring, just as long as it doesn't get to zero there is no way for the "atmosphere" to get in. Just buy 1 or 2 cans of R134a, with the low side pressure guage included, and recharge the system DIY.