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Barrpete; SAID= I'd be a bit leery that by restricting air flow through the condensor only that it might also effectively reduce engine cooling air flow and increase the engine temp. Particularly at idle. Or maybe that effect is reduced by adding additional electric fans


Barrpete YOUR Temperature Concerns ARE VALID! We must always remember this is an AIR COOLED ENGINE

However with what I am doing Engine/Oil Temps SEEM NOT TO BE A PROBLEM IN MY TESTING WITH SEALED REAR CONDENSERS IN THE DECK LID SO FAR!

I have driven my car at all hours for several weeks and times of day of testing without an noticeable problems or indication of higher engine related TEMP HEAT
My OIL TEMP gauge works good and I also have a digital temp gauge in the evaporator cabin airflow

Please know I am very aware of engine temperatures and auxiliary systems taxing engineís because of other engineering work I do in marine engineering,

however perhaps you missed my reply to Cloogie and DRACO A5OG when I told them I had tried and completely tested a universal Parallel Flow condenser from ACKITS in Arizona, for several weeks before I built my own first condensers and had it completely sealed to the deck air inlet, and because it is much smaller then the opening and I used thin clear plastic to fill the air gaps,

I thought I had uploaded a picture showing my ACKITíS test condenser from ACKITís I tried several months ago

So I will upload it again with this message reply

After I installed it I sealed all the gaps,

Look carefully on the right side of the condenser picture between the A/C condenser hoses and the condenser you will see what look like air gaps between the condenser and the right side of the air intake: NOTE: IT IS COMPLETELY SEALED WITH THIN CLEAR PLASTIC YOU CAN SEE THROUGH AND IN THE DECK LID AND THE AIR IS FORCED THROUGH ONLY THE REAR CONDENSER FIRST THEN ENTERS THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT AND THEN GOES INTO THE ENGINE COOLING FAN INTAKE ON THE ENGINE; again from my tests so far seems FINE, at least for my engine and car configuration to not matter so far that I can tell monitoring temperature gauges EITHER BULT IN FOR OIL TEMP TO THE CAR OR WITH MY LAZAR GUN TEMP GAUGE COMPARING THE OIL TANK, AND ENGINE ROOM SURFACES.

The bottom line is; I discovered from weeks of testing a REAR sealed condenser with my stock 2.7 L 1975 911 Carrera, in forcing air from the deck lid engine cooling air inlet opening DIRECTLY ONLY & THROUGH A SEALED REAR CONDENSER; THE ENGINE HEAT TEMP RISE seemed negligible WITH no indication of excessive heat over normal temps. NOTE: This was with a smaller condenser then the opening and several inches wide air inlet opening were lost after being blocked off with thin clear plastic to insure sealing; then my new countered fit that will take full advantage of the full size of the stock air opening
Old 07-07-2011, 06:13 PM
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Also, keep in mind that the entire underside of the engine is open. I suspect that the restriction of air through a few square inches of the deck lid grill isn't going to make a huge difference in the operating temps of our engines.

My $.02.
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:27 PM
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How much are you going to sell these bad boys for dude?

- once all finished of course?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottb View Post
Also, keep in mind that the entire underside of the engine is open. I suspect that the restriction of air through a few square inches of the deck lid grill isn't going to make a huge difference in the operating temps of our engines.

My $.02.
Scott yes I know and agree with you!

I have not said anything yet but for sometime I have been thinking about making a PF heat exchanger as a front engine oil cooler. It would be pretty easy for me now to custom make one.

I watch my engine temps very careful even before I got into these condensers

My engine oil thermistate has needed to be replaced for sometime and the engine sometimes gets pretty hot after driving and it comes up to normal temp and when i get in stop and go traffic and have to stop and the engine idles a bit too long it makes me unconfortable,

To change the oil temp regulator its far easier then pulling the CIS injection from the top of the engine to get to the
I dont have an oil cooler on my car and know one would help drop my oil temps. .
Old 07-08-2011, 04:48 AM
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Porsche Crest Patent pending notice !!! & how much

Please Note: my condensers are NOW PATENT PENDING!!!
I know some idiot will try to copy my aftermarket Porsche condensers now that I have publicly let the world know they exist, if they do I am ready for them and will own them


Several people have private messaged me that are interested in buying and I have not said anything to them because I have been thinking about it.

For the general public I am thinking about an initial price of $285 for my front condenser and an initial price of at least $300 for my contour rear condenser

I think this price is too low for a custom handmade limited market PF condenser, I chose this temporarily initial price from prices I have seen by others advertising for what they have, that is not what I have; but I can always adjust the price later.

I have a test marketing ebay listing here
Porsche 911 A/C Front Condenser Parallel Flow | eBay

Dont use ebay to one if you seriously want one private message me it will save you some money over eBay for a limited time untiil I make an arrangement with Pelican Parts, etc


What I am thinking is; soon offering a package deal including a front and rear custom made PF condensers together with an evaporator for initially around $1000 or so for initial end users

Pelican Parts I do not think knows what I am doing yet, but I plan to contact them and inform them; I am thankful they provide a great discussion forum with invaluable information for us Porsche owners, and I also want to say I have bought from Pelican a few times and they provide a very good service and I would recommend them to others for Porsche parts.

FYI I was contacted here in a personal message by RennAir a couple of weeks ago after they read my posts here indicating they are interested in my condensers. Which was funny because I had been wanting to contact them to try one of their evaporators but was just to busy to call them. They are really being nice they are sending me one of their evaporators to test and I plan to return the favor and send them one of my condensers soon.

I noticed that someone is here reading our posts and are subscribed here from Griffins and I am looking forward to communicating with them, and my hats off to them for the wonderful work they do.

The quality of the people here is amazing to say the least

===
Anyway back to price;
Everyone wants price always as cheap as possible ! BUT GOOD QUALITY IS NOT CHEAP, and why I own a Porsche, and this is not Wal-Mart (smile)

However there are many considerations to be made if you make something and want to sell it. First is to make enough from it to make it worth doing, compared to what it cost you which includes your research, development, testing, marketing, manufacturing facility, insurance and warranty etc., costs; followed by distribution costs verses supply and demand.

I am fully aware of the US standard price break structure for auto, marine, and recreational vehicles, after extensively studying this subject several years ago for other products I designed and made. And my prices will conform to this structure. These means there are different levels of price that must conform too this standard. They are for example Stocking Warehouse Distributor, OEM, Distributor, Parts Houses, Dealers, resellers, those in the trade, and finally end users (consumers). The end user price

My initial price here I stated is too low to allow for the US standard price break structure and will probably need change to higher in the future, so consider this if it upsets you!

I want to produce a quality product and stand by it with integrity and I will or OR I will not make it; also I want people to be happy with what I make because I care about people!
Old 07-08-2011, 11:39 PM
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Old 07-09-2011, 01:25 AM
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Engine temps & sealed rear condenser

Scott yes I know
I have not said anything yet but for sometime but I have been thinking about making a PF heat exchanger as a front engine oil cooler. It would be pretty easy for me now to custommake one.

My engine oil thermistate has needed to be replaced for sometime
Old 07-09-2011, 05:32 AM
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Question ...your front condenser is 23" x 6.25" x1.0". Is this size the same size as the original in my 79SC and/or will it fit in the original position without having to fiddle with spacers etc.....
in other words...a drop in unit ...thanks for your reply.
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Old 07-09-2011, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KelogGes View Post
I have a test marketing ebay listing here
Porsche 911 A/C Front Condenser Parallel Flow | eBay
It seems someone else is advertising a parallel flow condenser for 911 on eBay, but does not provide an actual photo of the item... Makes me leery when I cannot see the advertised product.
Keep us posted on your progress and pricing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy_gg View Post
It seems someone else is advertising a parallel flow condenser for 911 on eBay, but does not provide an actual photo of the item... Makes me leery when I cannot see the advertised product.
Keep us posted on your progress and pricing.
This other ebay ad almost through me off also because it said Miami which is almost next to Ft. Lauderdale, because I am right in between the two.
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:05 AM
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Old evaporator

I have been having some welding and brazing delay problems with an evaporator I have been working on so I have temporarily shelved this project to finish later so I could finish the connections and testing for my engine lid sealed contour rear condenser as you may have read me say here

This evaporator caused me to be without A/C for several days ouch (its 90 degrees ambient here right now and closed car temp in the sun is 125 degrees plus)

I thought some of you might be interested in this,
You know from my posts I am running a sealed rear deck lid PF condenser as well as a front PF condenser

Yesterday Friday I put back in my original 36 year old 1975 Behr OEM flair fitting evaporator that never has been flushed out and seen better days and should be replaced.

I put a modified thermal expansion flair fitting valve in the piece of crap evaporator & vacumed then charged the system with 2 pounds of R134A
Started up the engine and increased the rpm holding to maybe 2500 or so; pressures were 10psi on the low side and I think they were 225 on the high side
Then I started watching my digital temp gauge in the air vent; temps went down to 45 degrees and I shut down the engine put things away so I could go and test drive the car.

I drove from the shop to the expressway and by this time the engine was at normal operating temp, I do not have a external extra oil cooler installed only the one on the engine.

I drove on the expressway north about 10 miles air vent temp was 51.7 to 52 F;
oil temp was 225F which was normal for this car at this ambiant temp of 90F

I turned around going south and wouldnít you know it a traffic jam on the expressway soon after I turned around and for the next 5 miles or so it was bumper to bumper stop and go and 25mph, during this vent temp rose to 55F for 20 minutes; then finally speeded up. NOTE: I have been using 60 mph in 4th gear my test speed and rpm for consistency when clear of traffic. For the next few miles before I got off the expressway vent air temps returned to 51.7 ti 52 average vent temp; coldest achieved was 49-50F. Thermometer used for air vent temp is a digital cooking type thermometer with a long metal prob.

For curiosity after I got off the expressway I pulled over and used my digital laser point and shoot thermometer, increased the engine rpm from idle to about 2500 and shot the laser as best I could into/between the holes of the vent air handler ; indicated temps inside the air handler that is not fully sealed combiner and has leaks were 31 down to 19F, this temp would be the plastic deep into the air handler that has 2 sides.

Conclusion
(Remember I consider this 36 year old OEM copper evaporator a junk evaporator he he he but it kind of works) one in better condition would work far better!

Ambient temp yester day was 90-91 F; humidity was low for here at 66 inches of mercury for these tests!
Engine oil temp with the sealed rear deck lid condenser stayed completely within normal limits including in stop and go traffic with much idling

Average speed 4th gear @60 mph ; @52 degrees F air vent temp ; air handler plastic inside temp letís say @25 F, stop and go slow 15-25 mph speed traffic and idling vent temp 55-58F

(note: as a marine engineer I consider air handler vent temps of 54 degrees F to be very good temps as well as do other A/C experts for cold room A/C temps)

I would think that any 911 getting air vent temps of 52 F would be more then acceptable to any 911 owner to be happy; I used to get this temp sometimes using R-12 refrigerant , number one this is the temp my evaporator protection compressor multi speed blower probe that normal goes into the evaporator is set to regulate evaporator coldest temp shut off for the compressor for the controller I am using; but I have removed the probe from the evaporator and sealed the hole for the probe because its set to high for ME, because I want colder i.e. 38-41 F and donít need it at this time. Number 2 I have I have never seen or heard of a 911 using R134A get Temps this low using tube and fine front and rear condensers even if they were brand new!

Additional notes: drivers door broken wind wing with 2 inch by 2 inch air hole gap; drivers door to body very badly sealed with several air gaps and inside door panels removed from the inside of the door exposing the full length of door metal and with no insulation; body several holes in the floor PAN underneath allowing air to come in and exist out the door and wind wing. (I know I know he he he; I am working on the body problems and replacement door not fully installed yet correctly to properly fit)
Old 07-09-2011, 12:56 PM
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Front Condenser Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porchcar guy View Post
Question ...your front condenser is 23" x 6.25" x1.0". Is this size the same size as the original in my 79SC and/or will it fit in the original position without having to fiddle with spacers etc.....
in other words...a drop in unit ...thanks for your reply.

Howdy Porchcar guy youíre in Albuquerque itís ouch in the summer; I have been there several times both in summer and winter. I know how hot 100 plus daily can be just be thankful you donít live in Death Valley (smile)


You have asked a good question and brought up some good points!

NO my PF front condenser size is not exactly the same, my front condenser dimensionís are different and larger for a very good reason!!!

Your BEHR OEM tube and fin front condenser is same size as the demension picture below and also shown at the bottom a picture showing OEM demensions, except yours has flair fittings
1989 Porsche 911 BEHR Condenser Front, Valance mounted unit O-RING Fitting Connection OEM # 91157305603
18.78 x 5.11 x 1.26 IN
477 x 130 x 32 mm

Your OEM condenser is only 5.1 inches wide; mine is bigger is sligtly bigger at about 6 1/4 inches so its its wider then the OEM about an inch and a quarter or so; but will still fit in the limited space where yours is

I am not making a perfect dimension fit replacements for the front condenser at this time and I am not sure I will, unless you would demand only this and want to pay more; as well as shoot yourself in the foot with less a efficient PF front condenser then my prototype is.

your 79 SC front OEM condenser IS exactly the same as the BEHR OEM one I removed from my 75 Carrera , and mine was also flair fittings like yours has; the body of the car is exactly the same. In fact from 74 to early 89 even including the front spoilers that the front valance condenser gets right next it, the area space where the condenser can fit is exactly the same unless I am mistaken, and I donít think so from looking at many cars in the shop on car lifts.

There can be one differences I discovered recently and this is for 911s that never came with factory A/C. or had the front spoiler dam. For these cars the car needs to be modified to allow a/c condensers in the pan; I learned this recently in a discussion with the owner of the repair shop I have been working on my prototypes.

FYI My custom made front condensers have O-RING Fittings and you would have to change the ends to your A/C hoses

FRONT MOUNTING:
As far as front condenser mounting goes; I want to say first on my 75 Carrera before I even got into making condensers I wiped out my front condenser many times hitting concrete parking stops because I did not have the front condenser steel guard on the front instaled. This caused me to rip several condensers from the bottom of the car pan (he he he I know I was a dummy).

When the bolts were ripped out the holes I had made several times over the years or had been there originally they could no longer be used, because I was using sheet metal screws that worked fine until they got ripped out. This caused me to drill more holes all around the area where the car original holes were, to find new places in the underside pan sheet metal; this caused me to move the condenser I had a bunch of times and move my front condenser side to side and up and down the areas of the pan where the condenser could fit and still attach my a/c hoses.

I donít know why Porsche choose to make the front condenser smaller then they had too because they could have had it made by BEHR slightly bigger then they did from the first one they had BEHR make; but I guess they just did what they did and never changed it.

KEEP IN MIND; There is more room available where the original size OEM front condenser CAN GO AND FIT!!!

Your thinking is it can only go one exact place; this would be true if you only use the never changed original holes for the Screw HOLES for an OEM condenser and replaced it with this same!

ALSO pre-1989 911 / 930 series Porsches where never designed to have A/C it was an afterthought caused by demand in the USA, and from what I have read Porsche did not design the A/C system used in any of this series Porsche it was done by a couple of small automotive repair shops that that also did A/C work, and Porsche factory adopted their production cars using what these shops ideas developed from the USA; unless I am mistaken from many things I have read in the last 20 years.

YOU MUST REMEMBER I THINK IN ENGINEERING OUTSIDE THE BOX! I work on one of a kind, extremely expensive big privately owned CUSTOM MADE Motor Yachts for 35 years that cost tons of money, where money is no object and excellence is the name of the game to achieve everything to make a billionaire happy.

There is a very good reason my front condenser is bigger and approximately 6 inches wide compared to the 5 inch wide OEM unit, and a couple of inches longer too; this WIDTH allows for a few extra rows of flat micro-channel & fin rows that give much greater condenser efficiency then if it had less rows of micro-channel tubes;

I am attempting to maximize my front PF condense surface area and efficiency to the extreme and I have pushed it so far that the last row of micro-channel tube outer outside edge of this PF condenser does not even have any aluminum fin on it, but the other side of it does; just to make it fit as much width as possible!

This last row of micro channel tube is not as efficient as the others in the airflow because of the lack of FIN on one side of it. However it still greatly adds at least some efficiency and ANY EFFICIENCY that can be added to this tiny condenser makes the A/C system work better!

So now letís go back to your valance pan mounting considerations question he he he
Your original mounting cannot be used the way I am currently making my front condenser; because of where my end brackets are because my condenser is bigger. I could have welded brackets on the underside of it that would line up with your original holes but it would have made a nightmare for you or anyone to try to attach it using the same orginal hole pattern to say the least.

Respectfully I suggest you change your thinking a bit, about mounting

The mounting really does not matter as long as itís easy to mount securely and 4 small new holes can be drilled that will except either self taping sheet metal crews or bolt and nuts; bolt and nuts PREFERED!

IF you notice on the picture of my front condenser here on the first page of our discussion, the condenser end tubes have several small screw holes along the edge of the tube mounting bracket tab holes and you can use as little as 4 one on each corner or one in every hole of the tubes bracket tab depending on your preference.

These 2 aluminum tubes on the outside of the condenser can be tightened using the tube bracket flanges with screws so the tubes make contact with the sheet metal of the sheet metal pan where it will fit anywhere between the 2 round bars that also holds the front condenser protector and that also connects the supports the front suspension for the wheels. Basically in the same area where the OEM condenser was that seems to fit best.

After you remove the stone guard and old OEM condenser You may have to move the new one around a little to find the best place it fits for your car underside as well as youíre a/c hoses before you firmly secure it.

You mentioned condenser support spacers; Personally I donít use them; at least not right now.

My personal front PF condenser is currently attached with 4 thin self taping sheet metal screws that were long enough to perforate the sheet metal of the pan, near the 4 corners of my condenser that was the easiest to drill pilot holes, then I just screwed in the sheet metal screw to lightly but snugly pull the condenser side tubes into the pan to be secure. Took me about 15 minutes. The contour of the underside pan in this area is not completely flat. The front edge my condenser is actually just barely touching the sheet metal pan but the back side is far enough away to allow good airflow through the condenser and fins.

I need to state I am not using the stock little squarel cage blower motor and fan in the front trunk because the sheet metal inside my trunk for the pan for the gas tank additional welded in fan shroud for the lower placed below the pan is damaged due to rust; and regarding fan blowers I will talk about this soon; because I have a 4 inch axial tube fan I want to install with much higher air pressure blower I want to install soon; and this will be another discussion later

I have at this time on my front condenser two, 5 inch high speed high quality blower motors fans and it works fine with plenty of airflow;

However this is only to be used temporally because these fans hang below the condenser pulling air through the condenser and its not a good idea to do this and leave this way, as its only a matter of time before I wipe them out from a parking concrete tire stop if am not careful in parking

I must say to all that air flow ďthrough the condensersĒ not around them is critical for condenser Efficiency For them to work good!!!

I know this is going to be a very important topic, especially for people in the desert climates and those of us in the tropical climates as well as others!!!

Soon after I finish my contour rear condenser this next week, I will bring up the subject of the stone guard that probably will need to be modified to fit with a little bending, and or with a new one I will make available I will make;

Below picture showz the demensions for an O-Ring connection front 89 tube and fin Condenser I believe are pretty standard size for all earlier 911 front condensers

Last edited by KelogGes; 07-11-2011 at 05:21 PM..
Old 07-10-2011, 01:00 PM
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someone else is advertising a condenser on ebay

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy_gg View Post
It seems someone else is advertising a parallel flow condenser for 911 on eBay, but does not provide an actual photo of the item... Makes me leery when I cannot see the advertised product.
Keep us posted on your progress and pricing.
This is an A/C parts company in Miami, I know who they are;

It is a lie these condensers are for Porsches!!!

If you look at their ebay listings they use the same picture

I talked to them months ago about this and was told it was a mistake and would be corrected; however they continue to lie they are for Porsche!!!

They are selling Chinese UNIVERSAL PF condensers
Old 07-11-2011, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KelogGes View Post
This is an A/C parts company in Miami, I know who they are;

It is a lie these condensers are for Porsches!!!

If you look at their ebay listings they use the same picture

I talked to them months ago about this and was told it was a mistake and would be corrected; however they continue to lie they are for Porsche!!!

They are selling Chinese UNIVERSAL PF condensers
Thanks for confirming, I did figure they weren't up-front with their product or they would have actual pictures listed.
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Old 07-11-2011, 07:35 PM
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K....Thanks for your informative lesson on front condenser placement. My question about drop in was to have you elaborate on the subject as I plan to remove the OLD front condenser and upgrade to "o" ring fittings as well as pull out the rest of the system and redo with new parts etc...My concern would be placement so as to allow the crash bar and screen to be used as designed, safety measures for that nasty concrete . I would relish a more efficient blower sytem in that area also. good Luck with this project as the Pelicans once again comes thru with new and better designs, or at least innovative ways to make our cars better !!...Geoff
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Old 07-12-2011, 09:28 AM
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Porsche Crest Porsche 911 REAR DECK LID Contour Fit Condenser Prototype finally ready for testing

I finally have the rear deck lid countour condenser ready for installation and testing for Monday and expect it to work just fine from my experience with all the different prototypes I already made
Old 07-16-2011, 08:04 PM
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Porsche Crest First Test Rear Contour Condeser

ALL TEST VENT TEMPS WERE IN THE 40s F! Burr cold

Preliminary Test Results I think went very good for my new rear contour condenser first test!!!
Yesterday Tuesday July 19th

Lowest Test Temp was 41.7 F: average temp with different driving conditions was about 45-46 F. Highest; in stop and go traffic and when idling for short periods was 47-48 max.

Note: The condenser for the first test was quickly installed and was not perfectly sealed to the deck lid with any insulation material yet, and there were some small air gaps around the air intake it closely fits too. I expect when these small air gaps are eliminated the efficiently for the condenser will be further improved resulting in an even further reduction in vent air temps!

The car was inside the shop, air vent temp when the door was open was about 90 F
The A/C system was evacuated and charged with 2 lbs R134A Freon.

The engine was started and ran for a few minutes, no drop in temp was noted in the air vent hmmm strange; and engine was stopped and inspecting the engine compartment it was discovered the A/C compressor clutch connection was not connected (upps DUH, he he no wonder) Clutch wire reconnected, engine started vent temps started falling from 90 F, engine was turned off after air vent temp hit 45 F and still falling.
I think the High side pressure went up to about 190? The low side was about 10 psi; I did not take an ambivalent temp but think it was at least 88 degrees inside the shop


Note: My evaporator plastic box is still not insulated or sealed good and this will lower temps when it is; Also I have I have major air gaps in the driverís door and some body holes that effect my temps and when I fix this temps will be even lower; also the condenser is not yet completely sealed to the deck lid; this things when they are repaired will greatly increase efficiency and provide lower temps I am sure.

NOTE: I AM GOING TO REDESIGN THIS CONDENSER A LITTLE AFTER LEARNING A FEW THINGS AFTER I INSTALLED IT RELATED TO HOSE CONNECTIONS
Old 07-20-2011, 04:58 AM
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:27 AM
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:27 AM
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