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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErVikingo View Post
I'm local. Might bring my SC 3.2 for an upgrade.
Howdy ErVikingo, You are welcome to private message me here if you are interested

My Friends Porsche shop where I am engineering the condeners >; Stokes Automotive, is west of 95 about 2 miles, and near Hallandale Beach Blvd a couple of blocks North, in West Park, Florida which is between the cities of Hallandale and Hollywood FL
Old 07-20-2011, 04:12 PM
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Is that Butch's new location?
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:49 PM
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Butch Stokes; Stokes Automotive

Well sort of he he he

Butch retired a couple of years ago after owning the shop for 30 plus years sold the shop propertly that was next to I-95 and sold the well established business to Justin Stokes. his nephew who worked for him many years, and Justin moved the shop when the property was sold to its current location , Marty left Butch a few years ago and started his own Porsche racing business that is about 15 to 20 miles or so north

BTW: Its funny you asked this today, Butch was at Justins shop today working on a special engine project for and old customer and friend; he drops by from time to time.
Old 07-20-2011, 06:55 PM
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I'm also thinking about this a/c set up. Mine needs more than just this upgrade because I still have the original compressor and hoses. I'm in Hollywood so I know the shop you are talking about. I believe it's run now by Butches nephew Justin. It right next to James McHugh auto painting.
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Old 07-20-2011, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by yogi View Post
I'm also thinking about this a/c set up. Mine needs more than just this upgrade because I still have the original compressor and hoses. I'm in Hollywood so I know the shop you are talking about. I believe it's run now by Butches nephew Justin. It right next to James McHugh auto painting.
Hi Jerry,

Yes Jim McHugh (senior) owns the property that also has his well known for high quality painting and auto customization company and rents one of his shops to Justin for Stokes Automotive

Small world isn’t it

I have known Butch and Justin for I think maybe about 20 years they are quality, honest people with integraty



Regards,

Reid (954) 599-5235

Last edited by KelogGes; 07-27-2011 at 05:21 PM..
Old 07-20-2011, 07:50 PM
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Porsche Crest 41 F - 42 F vent temp Thursday, July 22

Thursday, July 22

I made some new adjustments to my thermal expansion valve

Yesterday late afternoon driving test vent temps results ambient temp was 91 degrees F

Coldest temperature achieved was 37.7 F but this was only temporary

On late afternoon 10 mile each way 60 mph 4th gear driving test Averaged vent temps late afternoon where 41 to 42 F

Last edited by KelogGes; 07-22-2011 at 04:31 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 07-22-2011, 04:25 AM
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CONSTANT air vent temps @41 degrees or better with R134A and ambient @91 F had been my target temps and I think i have achieved my target temp with my custom made 911 front and rear PF condensers?

btw this was aceived without me wraping insulation around the outside of my plastic evaporator box that I know doing this will lower air vents temps further

I now expect achieving even colder air vent temps in the 30s

Its July, there are record heat waves currently hitting severa; states across much of the the usa @ 116 ouch

ANYONE Want AN ICE COLD Porsche 911
Old 07-22-2011, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mitch Leland View Post
+1 for Barrpete...

I'm also concerned as the efficiency of the condenser goes up the heat load (dumping) on the engine goes up as well.

A second point to consider for the front condenser, the Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condenser doesn't want to lay flat, it needs to stand up right to work at it's most efficient level. From what I've read the after market "serpentine" condenser will still out perform the PFMC unit unless you want to butcher the front sheet metal to allow vertical installation.
Please explain to educate:

For a given condenser should the return fitting and heat exchanger orientation be located to have the best chance of picking up liquid compared to gas? I.e at the bottom as installed?

Some of these prototypes looking like the tubes are a single pass or maybe double pass (over and back), does this matter? If the net heat rejected is the same or better, does that matter?

Thanks.
Old 07-22-2011, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by hcoles View Post
Please explain to educate:

For a given condenser should the return fitting and heat exchanger orientation be located to have the best chance of picking up liquid compared to gas? I.e at the bottom as installed?

Some of these prototypes looking like the tubes are a single pass or maybe double pass (over and back), does this matter? If the net heat rejected is the same or better, does that matter?

Thanks.
Hello hcoles

I have to be very careful what I say here regarding parallel flow Condenser technology because my condensers Are “Patent Pending” !!!

i do not know who you asked your question or said your statements too? And your question & statements are confusing

But some of your statements are incorrect so I will say this

My condensers are triple pass using latest technologies for R134A Freon! It is a widely known PFC fact the more pass’s the higher the PFC efficiency!

Any PFC condenser is considered to be generally 30 percent (or better up to maybe 45 percent) more efficient than any prior A/C condenser for any application and not just for auto’s.

Look at some of the diagrams I uploaded with my posts here, of generally industry accepted technology diagrams showing the progression of A/C condenser technologies

NOTE: Serpentine & FIN IS A MUCH OLDER Technology then PF Coils ; Serpentine condensers were invented back in the R-12 Freon Days; compared to PFC technology which was developed specially for R134A because it is so much LESS EFFICENT then R-12 was, before R-12 manufacturing was banned in most of the world.

Serpentine & FIN is only slightly better efficiency than Tube & Fin efficiency and neither of these older type heat exchangers work very efficiency & they are now considered to be obsolete for Autos/Trucks/Aircraft/etc mobile equipment!

ALL auto/truck/etc manufacturers worldwide are currently building their vehicles A/C systems using PFC’s; including even the newest Carbon Dioxide CO2 super high pressure refrigerant A/C system Technologies being currently installed at most new car USA manufactures if I am not mistaken !

For example You can go to this web site that makes small aircraft custom A/C and uses parallel flow technology if you like; what they have written there about PFC technology might help you understand some of it better; however I do not agree with everything they say about condensers being placed down flat and must be horizontal; (but I cannot elaborate why I say this due to patents pending!!!)

experimental aircraft air conditioning - Condensers

However I will say my secondary front condenser sits flat horizontal installed between the front tires kind of similar as the OEM condenser!

As for my rear contour condenser it sits vertical in the 911 deck lid kind of similar as the OEM condenser !

NOTE: a/c condensers have basically one purpose to receive high pressure refrigerant gas that comes from the high pressure side of the A/C refrigerant gas compressor COOL the high pressure compressed gas below its phase change temperature state enough lowered to allow the phase change state from a high pressure hot gas to a pressurized phase change state liquid (note: anyone is welcome to correct me if I said this wrong I am a Marine Engineer, not a Refrigeration Engineer)

I live in the Tropics in heat and humidity, I want COLD YEAR ROUND NOT COOL THIS is why I got into this!!! NOW I GOT COLD 911
Reading about the super high 116 F temps in much of the US sure makes me glad I finally got cold, as hot as our temps here get in July I normally dread August and September here but this years driving is going to be different; I sure feel sorry for the people in the northern US that normally never gets this hot in summer getting high desert temps they never do ouch.

Hcoles I would think your interest should be how cold your car is on any given hot day and you never sweat again driving and are always very comfortable, not warm or hot compared to how poorly inefficient or positively efficient your A/C system is no matter where your Porsche is driven, 1963 to 1989 rear engine Porsches never were designed to have A/C and Porsches fix due to demand really sucked to say the least but I guess you have learned this.
Old 07-22-2011, 08:18 PM
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will you be making a rear "R-12" specific condenser? for those of us here in the southwest that still have R-12????
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Old 07-23-2011, 05:28 AM
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Hello hcoles

I have to be very careful what I say here regarding parallel flow Condenser technology because my condensers Are “Patent Pending” !!!

i do not know who you asked your question or said your statements too? And your question & statements are confusing

But some of your statements are incorrect so I will say this

My condensers are triple pass using latest technologies for R134A Freon! It is a widely known PFC fact the more pass’s the higher the PFC efficiency!

Any PFC condenser is considered to be generally 30 percent (or better up to maybe 45 percent) more efficient than any prior A/C condenser for any application and not just for auto’s.

Look at some of the diagrams I uploaded with my posts here, of generally industry accepted technology diagrams showing the progression of A/C condenser technologies

NOTE: Serpentine & FIN IS A MUCH OLDER Technology then PF Coils ; Serpentine condensers were invented back in the R-12 Freon Days; compared to PFC technology which was developed specially for R134A because it is so much LESS EFFICENT then R-12 was, before R-12 manufacturing was banned in most of the world.

Serpentine & FIN is only slightly better efficiency than Tube & Fin efficiency and neither of these older type heat exchangers work very efficiency & they are now considered to be obsolete for Autos/Trucks/Aircraft/etc mobile equipment!

ALL auto/truck/etc manufacturers worldwide are currently building their vehicles A/C systems using PFC’s; including even the newest Carbon Dioxide CO2 super high pressure refrigerant A/C system Technologies being currently installed at most new car USA manufactures if I am not mistaken !

For example You can go to this web site that makes small aircraft custom A/C and uses parallel flow technology if you like; what they have written there about PFC technology might help you understand some of it better; however I do not agree with everything they say about condensers being placed down flat and must be horizontal; (but I cannot elaborate why I say this due to patents pending!!!)

experimental aircraft air conditioning - Condensers

However I will say my secondary front condenser sits flat horizontal installed between the front tires kind of similar as the OEM condenser!

As for my rear contour condenser it sits vertical in the 911 deck lid kind of similar as the OEM condenser !

NOTE: a/c condensers have basically one purpose to receive high pressure refrigerant gas that comes from the high pressure side of the A/C refrigerant gas compressor COOL the high pressure compressed gas below its phase change temperature state enough lowered to allow the phase change state from a high pressure hot gas to a pressurized phase change state liquid (note: anyone is welcome to correct me if I said this wrong I am a Marine Engineer, not a Refrigeration Engineer)

I live in the Tropics in heat and humidity, I want COLD YEAR ROUND NOT COOL THIS is why I got into this!!! NOW I GOT COLD 911
Reading about the super high 116 F temps in much of the US sure makes me glad I finally got cold, as hot as our temps here get in July I normally dread August and September here but this years driving is going to be different; I sure feel sorry for the people in the northern US that normally never gets this hot in summer getting high desert temps they never do ouch.

Hcoles I would think your interest should be how cold your car is on any given hot day and you never sweat again driving and are always very comfortable, not warm or hot compared to how poorly inefficient or positively efficient your A/C system is no matter where your Porsche is driven, 1963 to 1989 rear engine Porsches never were designed to have A/C and Porsches fix due to demand really sucked to say the least but I guess you have learned this.
Thanks for the info. I asked only here and only questions. I have an 89 and yes my interest is to redo the AC with only bolt no parts that fit without adding e.g. condensers or fans/etc. I'm lucky that the climate here is for the most part fine without AC but when driving in the summer to the track it can be hot.

My limited knowledge is that the "hot gas" has what is called quality (% of liquid?) and then is condensed to a higher (% of liquid) exactly what the lowered temp. is I don't know, the temp. comes down after mixture is mostly liquid? I think it can be determined on the enthalpy chart. Interesting to know your hex is 3 pass, has to be an odd number if the headers are on different sides.

I'm not trying to reverse engineer the detail of your design just asking questions.

Thanks again.
Old 07-23-2011, 07:02 AM
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Porsche Crest 911 using PFC's & R-12

QUOTE=ODDJOB UNO;6153052]will you be making a rear "R-12" specific condenser? for those of us here in the southwest that still have R-12????[/QUOTE]

Howdy ODDJOB,

a separate "R-12" specific condenser" is not needed,

I thought it should be obvious from what i have posted here, but from your question I guess I was wrong, sorry so I will tell you

In a nutshell the whole world of heat exchangers was revolutionized with the invention of the latest technology “micro-channel extrusions” placed one after the other with new more enhanced fins placed between 2 tubes in parallel flow because this recent invention originally I think called a BAM COIL; affords an efficacy compared to any prior heat exchanger by from approximately 25 to 45 percent efficacy then any prior invented together with the ability to also be 25 to 35 or so percent smaller in size dimensions and still afford this much higher efficiency ; you can search the internet and read tons of scientific and educational proven studies that confirms this

What this means is an R-12 Freon System WITH AN OLDER TECHNOIGY CONDENSER CHANGING TO A PFC, Efficiency changes basically higher "proportionally" as when using R-134A or other type of Freon refrigerant

In other words an R-12 Freon A/C system efficiency basically increases approximately 30 to 45 percent potential becomes basically COLDER using a PFC compared to any other type of prior invented condenser design. (note: anyone with better knowledge related to gases is welcome to chime in and correct me if I did not explain this correctly, I am a marine engineer not a refrigerant gas, HVAC or Thermodynamics engineer)

My bottom line opinion is USE PFC’s with R-12 if you want coldest

I currently would also say regardless if you are using any normally used refrigerants for cars as long as they can withstand the pressures I think they will work great; however i.e. CO2 might be a problem due to its extremely high pressures blowing up the condenser

Next Generation Refrigerant Debate – CO2 v HFC-1234yf and HC solutions
Next Generation Refrigerant Debate – CO2 v HFC-1234yf and HC solutions | Green Cooling Association
Old 07-23-2011, 08:53 AM
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this might help people see how the improved heat transfer is accomplished with the micro-channel design, this does not match the exact detail design of the hex described in this thread, refrigerant systems are a good use of micro-channel heat exchangers compared to water based fluids which are more apt to encounter issues.

Old 07-23-2011, 09:29 AM
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of course micro-channel heat exchangers have been around for years in many shapes and sizes, nice that someone is offering a replacement fitted for the older 911's.




Old 07-23-2011, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by hcoles View Post
Thanks for the info. I asked only here and only questions. I have an 89 and yes my interest is to redo the AC with only bolt no parts that fit without adding e.g. condensers or fans/etc. I'm lucky that the climate here is for the most part fine without AC but when driving in the summer to the track it can be hot.

My limited knowledge is that the "hot gas" has what is called quality (% of liquid?) and then is condensed to a higher (% of liquid) exactly what the lowered temp. is I don't know, the temp. comes down after mixture is mostly liquid? I think it can be determined on the enthalpy chart. Interesting to know your hex is 3 pass, has to be an odd number if the headers are on different sides.

I'm not trying to reverse engineer the detail of your design just asking questions.

Thanks again.
hcoles you are welcome, and please feel free to ask anything you want and if i can’t or won’t answer it properly I think someone else will.

to let you know I am interested in finding out more about your 89 911, is it early or late model 1989???

I ask because the late model 89s are water cooled and have a later body style I think

we had an 89 911 in the shop the other day and I looked at its rear deck lid tube and fin condener which has a couple of condenser tube passes and the earlier ones dont.

I have not look at the 89 late water cooled model 911 that has a later body style or the A/C system in it, and wonder if its it is different then the early 1989 non-water cooled model?

Regardless I am interested in your car a/c system over the earlier model years

I believe you are not trying to reverse engineer; however it’s not personal I have been advised by attorneys to be very careful what I say here because this is a public forum and my condensers are patent pending, for this reason I won’t/can’t get into any discussion related to the technical aspects of my condensers for obvious reasons (smile) but I will try to be as helpful as i can

FYI: although they have not posted messages here there are some extremely knowledgeable and helpful people here reading these posts and I welcome them and encourage them to add their vast knowledge and experience to this thread so all can learn

Many people here were very interested in PFC's for their 911s in years past and if you do searches here you will find several prior discussions here; but probably stopped posting discussions finally about them because no one made one anywhere that was designed to fit a 63 to 1989 911 Porsche. I know this because i have read all of them in my 4 year search to try to buy them both front and rear. I hope that some of these people come back and add to our discussions
Old 07-23-2011, 04:52 PM
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My 89 is a 3.2 the 964 3.6 started that year and was also air cooled along with the later 993. So my car is right in there with the common group that needs better AC. I think the 964's and later had better AC.
Old 07-23-2011, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by hcoles View Post
this might help people see how the improved heat transfer is accomplished with the micro-channel design, this does not match the exact detail design of the hex described in this thread, refrigerant systems are a good use of micro-channel heat exchangers compared to water based fluids which are more apt to encounter issues.

thanks for the pictures, I agree whey will help other understand better this new quickly changing technology

I think this PF micro-channel type you show is the early old PICOLO round hole type, and could be a superflow non multi-pass type, this early micro-channel technology has been vastly improved FYI

a ton of new design patents pending have been flying out almost daily since about 2003 related to this technology its actually amazing

To let you know the reason I decided to make 911 PFC's is because after searching almost daily for years to find them that would fit my 75 911 I got angry they just simply did not exist so it forced me to make my own and after all this work and cost to perfect this I decided to make them also for others who will want them for the same reasons that made me mad enough to make my own, even though it will be a very limited market that wants a quality product for their Porsche with the latest technology available and most of ALL THEY FINALLY GET COLD!

Last edited by KelogGes; 07-23-2011 at 06:00 PM.. Reason: typing errors
Old 07-23-2011, 05:50 PM
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How about a better condenser for 964/993 cars??
Old 07-23-2011, 06:12 PM
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My 89 is a 3.2 the 964 3.6 started that year and was also air cooled along with the later 993. So my car is right in there with the common group that needs better AC. I think the 964's and later had better AC.
Thank you for telling me you have an early model 89, this is my favorite year for Porsche 911s!!! Porsche's Most Beautiful 911 in my opinion! I will always be sad they changed the 911s they built after yours

From looking recently at a few 89 811s your front condenser placement is basically the same placement and same body as my 75 front OEM condenser except mine had flair fittings. My new front PFC is slightly larger than the OEM to use every inch available for mounting

Your deck lid rear condenser is also basically the same as my OEM, except in the later years after 83 there was a change to the rear condenser having more passes in the tube and fin of the later condenser but the mounting and dimensions is basically the same as my OEM with only minor changes. I have greatly changed from the OEM to be made to fit much better then Porsche did with my couture fit deck lid PFC perfectly fitting like a glove


Whenever possible I need to repair something on my old 75 I always try to use 98 model year parts if i can make them fit and most times i can. You have many parts on your car I would love to steal from you he he he because they are the latest made enhancements for the original 911 series

FYI if someone gave me a brand new Turbo Carrera or almost any year 911 2000-2011 Porsche i would try to sell it the next day in a heartbeat or trade it for a turbo Carrera or a CAB. 1989 911; I think the Porsche 911s built after yours are ugly and I don’t like them; even though i know they are fast and handle good, i would rather have then one of these 2000s year, an older 2 seater BMW Z-1 or Z-2 that has a different modified engine then what it came with, because think they are cool and i like how they look but the BMW Z engine has no balls

OH I forgot if you do a search here there were several interesting posts from people discussing PFC’s written a few years ago.
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Porsche Crest funny you should ask How about a better condenser for 964/993 cars??[/

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How about a better condenser for 964/993 cars??
Howdy mamut,

Hello mamut,

funny you should ask he he he

quick answer OK maybe but not right now

I am a little busy getting out a pair of requested test samples of my 911 front and rear PFC's to a well known Porsche A/C company who has a special customer excited about what I am doing

personally I do not know how good/how bad the A/C system works on these model Porsches you ask about normally???

CAN YOU TELL ME THE A/C TEMP PROBLEMS FOR THIS MODEL DRIVERS EXPERIENCE?

I have noticed that Griffins has Serpentine condenser replacements for these models shown on their web site

I have also noticed that someone from Griffins is subscribed to this forum thread here & probably reading and maybe they will join the discussion and add their vast knowledge and experience etc. and I welcome them to join us. They have been at the forefront of the aftermarket improvement of Porsche's A/C systems for many years and do a great job doing what they do to say the least!

I actually was giving this little thought recently to make PFC'S for other Porsche models besides the 63 to 98 911s and was looking at a few of the Porsche other models recently, and while I was thinking about this Justin (the owner of Stokes Automotive had a C-2 and also a C-3 in the shop a couple of weeks ago when I was working on my condensers, during the time he was changing their evaporators because they were leaking Freon which I thought very odd; regardless I took quick look at their condensers

Anyway when these cars were in the shop, I did not realize they used or had serpentine condensers when I looked at them quickly but was not sure what they had; it looks like now after reading Porsche and Behr condenser info at Griffins on these cars (see below) apparently they have/use serpentine condenser; the way they are enclosed/encased in their framework makes it difficult fpr me to tell the technology used when quickly looking.

This info comes from Griffith web site

Porsche Year OEM PN

964, C2, C4
1989-1994
99357301101
993
1995-1998
99357301101

OEM serpentine condenser. Fits all C2, C4, 964, 993 non turbo and turbo applications.


Never the less, in talking to Justin when he was working on these 2 cars a couple of weeks ago (that were the same models you asked about) in the shop I asked him how good the A/C system on these Porsche models worked compared to earlier model 911s and he told me pretty good because he has worked them since these models were introduced.

I remember thinking when I looked at their A/C condensers it would probably be fairly easy for me to make PFC condensers for them, and I wondered what the demand would be from people with these models of Porsche, but I really have no idea ???


For some time I have been really busy trying to finish the final prototype for my 911 contour deck lid PFC and I think it's finally done?

I have also been thinking about making aftermarket PFC's for large truck A/C systems that go on the roof top of the tractors that I have learned are very similar but slightly larger than the PFC's I am making for the early 911s. I was amazed to learn their only after market replacement was similar to their OEM old technology mostly tube and fin and some using serpentine and they do not have or can get PFC's for any of millions on the road today of these older trucks and this presents an interesting market; but I have to take this one step at a time because I am very limited on money to say the least.

Mamut I would imagine because you have this model Porsche you have met and/or talked to several other owners about YOUR A/C SYSTEM AND COMPONENTS and their pluses and minus related to efficiency AND TEMPS etc and that because of your interest in your Porsche model year you interact with others or read other places with similar people as you. Maybe start a NEW different forum thread related to all models of Porsche general discussion related to Parallel Flow, PFC's and the latest technology in i.e. multi-tank or other types of Evaporators, as well as reduced size barrier A/C hoses, dryers, thermal expansion valves, Variable Orifice Valves, pro-coolers, insulation materials
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