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to let people simply know that you do not need to spend a ton of money on your 911 to make your A/C system cold
The TRUTH IS THAT Any 911 owner by just simply replacing their old 911 Porsche OEM old tube and fin type obsolete technology condensers, or anyother types to much newer technology state of the art parallel flow micro channel condensers front and rear you will reap a vast improvement in greatly lowered a/c air vent temps and making your 911 cold. THESE ARE FACTS! Spending a lot of your hard earned money Changing your A/C components, i.e. hoses, evaporator and/or your compressor if they “currently ALL WORK PROPERLY as originally designed”, although replacing these components might give limited improvement to your 911, regardless to what anyone might tell you “these things do not need to be replaced” they can continue to be used!!! My successful extensive testing proved this last year repeatedly getting constant, just about freezing 34-36 F ice cold vent temps in all kinds of driving conditions (without evap icing) , even during 95F degree ambient temps in 99 % humidity heat index of 160 F / 71 C , where I live in THE TROPICS of Fort Lauderdale However these stated very low temps were reached by using a succession of several different component optimizations and well known 911 A/C tricks and not just changing condensors. I manufacture custom made new technology state of the art PF condensers; I am not trying to sell anything here I am trying to be helpful to 911 owners!!! I will make my PFC’s available here at Pelican very soon to the public |
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You need to write 5 good paragraphs of concise , plain English ad copy, not uber long rambly perseverative sentences . I'm trying to be helpful , even though I'm not personally interested in A/C :) |
Thinking outside the box question:
Thermodynamics can be fun to think about sometimes and thinking outside the box!
Thank You Kuehl for enlightening the thread related to a/c Black Death and Line Filters I would like to ask you to share your vast knowledge related to the possibility of completely removing the early 911 models rear deck lid a/c condenser and only using condensers in available other body cavities. I don’t think this has ever been successfully accomplished and still been able to get decent a/c temps to my knowledge from what I have read over many years of reading and discussing with others related to early model 911's? Also have you ever tried or know if anyone else has OR even thought about, running the compressor high pressure outlet line FIRST to the front lip condenser before returning it to the rear deck lid condenser? marine engineers do it different in water :cool: |
Reid, if your patent pending condensers were getting temps in the low 30's, why build something NEW? And the idea of making it secret is hilarious. Earlier posts you said that they were so great that you had to make them smaller than oem. So are we suppose to waste more money buying something NEW that makes it 90% efficient verses 89%? Well, I have gone from being very interested to very doubtful as I read through your posts trying to defend "your" product. I think it was a mistake on your part to start this thread without fully testing you setup with an oem, such as the way Griffiths did. And I have yet to hear from any one owner that had it installed on their car. If you want credibility, send one to someone like TLG, and let them report on it. For me, this is like snake oil st this point.
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And, it's laughable to suggest that the old hoses don't need to be replaced. They leak! And they leak even faster with R134a.
Of course you have to change stuff out, and not just the condensers. LOL. Reid is the PP solution to Slap-Chop Vince. |
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You guys seem to miss a very important point; I have not sold any of my PFC’s to the general public anywhere yet! I have been talking to Scott at Pelican for their possible distribution but nothing is finalized yet. I have a well known a/c company that’s been trying to buy for me for a year. The sales I have done so far have been very controlled and mostly local to me on purpose, and I have released only 2 other installations than my own installations publically, and have several people waiting! My current plan is to continue to do several more installations locally to me for now and release them publically with the owners and Stokes Automotive permission which will be done by Stokes Automotive (who I do not work for and independent from). I had 35-40 people last year who seriously contacted me to sell them them from here I intentionally put ON HOLD and told them to wait until I was ready to sell them to them. The sales I will be doing in the near future will also be very controlled. I am only one person with no employees at this time, slowly and very carefully bringing to the world something new I designed for 911 a/c cooling, you have to crawl before you walk and this is exactly doing what I am doing! I currently have several local 911 owners lined up in the wings to do their installs, I have already made 2 owners different matched sets for their PFC’s installations for them I have released to the public, and I am waiting for several 911 owers who have contact me to be brought into the shop for installation, and Stokes Automotives will also probably have other than the 911 owners I will refer to them for installation, some of their regular customers that want my PFC’s also and I will publish these installations; and also with the owner’s permission on a case by case basis if appropriate we allow people who are more than seriously interested communicate with these owners and/or with Stokes Automotive if needed. The last thing I am going to do “at this moment” is send my PFC’s out where various potential competitors can get public access to my technologies at this time! Unfortunately You have no idea of all the things I have going on in the background related to many things and I am doing, I am also going to leave you that way sometimes until the proper time I decide to release it! It’s very unfortunate how limited I am forced to be about talking about some things to both you and the other readers here and EVEN MORE to ME; because I am legally bound & prohibited from talking about several things with my hands tied due to signed confidentiality agreement contracts with a well known Porsche a/c company, who has had and already installed and successfully tested some of my PFC’s a year ago that wants an exclusive for ONE of my product lines, I had intentionally put on hold while I develop and prototyped several other different similar types of product lines so there would not be a conflict between them, which I have now recently completed which has furthermore lead to even more new product lines. What I think is kind of hilarious is your thinking “why build something NEW”, then state “this is like snake oil this point”, and a bit less humorous narrowly thinking I am only doing ONE thing related to heat exchangers for 911’s, just because I have not said anything you have read, and that I must do things like Griffiths does/did or others. I guess you missed me saying here several times I AM ON A DIFFERENT PATH! Kind regards, Reid |
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Under this premise I believe what I said is valid! |
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Frankly, I can't say I have a "vast" knowledge about deletion of the deck lid condenser as you have described, but we do have experience with clients whom have done this.... deleting the deck lid condenser, using the Kuehl condensers in the LH rear fender and the front condenser; usually done on turbo or supercharger applications. This can be done for 'up to...' certain ambient temperatures and naturally depending upon whether the car is a coupe or cabriolet, white vs. black. We have been testing our new condenser layout that does delete the deck-lid condenser and uses our Kuehl condensers outside of the deck lid, however it does not make sense to "talk" about it until its completed... capice! And, no, I never heard of anyone running the circuit from the compressor to front of the car and then back to the rear deck lid and back to the front of the car again. Unless you plan on moving the evaporator and air distribution system to the engine compartment or rear seat.... that would require an additional hose length of approximately 16 feet or more. On another note: if you want to help the readers here, discussing 1 topic "PF designs" then try to keep the subject in one thread rather than re-post the same stuff over and over. ================================================== ====== Quote:
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Thank you kuehl for replying to my 2 questions , your knowledge regarding this is just fine and answered my questions with good honest answers!
The reason I asked you the question about deleting the rear deck lid condenser is because I have had several people with normally aspirated early model 911s telling me they are adamant wanting to delete their rear deck lid condenser and run only on a single fender unit and/or a maybe an additional front lip condenser and get acceptable cold temps, and I have told them I thought they were dreaming, especially if they are intending use in high ambient temp areas, i.e. above 90F PLUS so I wanted to try to make sure I was giving correct info, and you have confirmed I am, so thank you very much! My second question to you was unrelated to my first and I know was a little odd because of some very strange high pressure lines being what seems like crazy re-routing <grin> I had a strong feeling you would tell me you have no knowledge related to my second question <smile> but you never know so this is why I asked. I am sure you have seen me say from time to time I think outside the box, this is one of those times I am thinking outside the box. This might be a stupid crazy group of thinking that may be useless I have had that has brought me to a conclusion; but I have found sometimes my crazy thinking in my life can lead to some interesting breakthroughs in doing something very simple that is different than normally done because no one ever thought about it different and was over looked for ages that is actually beneficial. Twist your head and think about this for a moment thermodynamically; if the high pressure high temp line is routed first directly into a metal heat exchanging metal tube line exposed to air runs and then goes next forward to the far distant front condenser and/or either a front lip condenser or say i.e. one of your fender/bumper type units and whatever blower fans can be used to facilitate the heat exchange aspect in these much cooler ambient air temp areas first (compared to the very hot engine compartment) and this line pre-cooled in a much cooler area then at first normally is; then ran all the way back to the rear again to the largest condenser in the engine compartment wouldn’t this pre-cooled high pressure line condense even faster and/or better and even further when back to rear deck lid condenser before/or as it next goes again forward as a heat exchanging metal liquid tube line to the filter dryer and evaporator? note: temporary regular hoses with hose clamps could be quickly tried using regular fittings to prove or disprove this It would be interesting to see your reply, as for me I really do not know the answer to this question until someone tries this but I think this may have merit? |
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If you were smart, you'd take the buyout offer. |
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I have offered you some very valuable advice, free of charge. Advice that could make your endeavors profitable for you, and help for the Porsche community. And until you can provide some sort of data to back up your dubious claims, I will continue to point out the flaws in your approach, AND suggest that folks seek other solutions for their AC problems. I suppose you could pay me to not post in these threads - I'd be happy to let others post the very same questions, and not add my voice. But your offer will have to be in the range of a new Duel Kuehl system for my Carrera. Yeah, that would be about the right price. PM me to get my PayPal account number so I can get the funds from you ASAP. Seriously - start a blog somewhere, and stop mooching off Wayne's good nature in your marketing pursuits. Sheesh - the least you can do is become a paid advertiser to defray his website costs. |
Folks,
I'm okay with people developing products here with the ultimate goal of bringing them to market - as long as they are ultimately carried in the Pelican catalog. Although I haven't read this thread in its entirety, there have been social gaffs on both sides here. I would recommend to *everyone* here to review their posts prior to posting and ask themselves if it provides a positive addition to the tech forum or not. -Wayne |
Thank You So Much Wayne!
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$20 A/C Vacuum Pump with R134A and R12 Connectors
Air Powered Vacuum Pump with R134A and R12 Connectors
DIY very cheap harbor freight vacuum pump has the capability to properly evacuate your A/C system pulling vacuum down to very acceptable levels to remove any moisture in your A/C system, and works excellent for pulling a vacuum for many applications BTW: these little puppies can also be found on Ebay even cheaper and I have also seen them there including refridgerationi manifold gauges with hoses To make this device work you will need a large enough compresser and if you dont have one you probably can go to a gastation or talk to your friends, these little tire pump compressors that plugs into your cars 12 volt receptical are too small. You need a compressor that can produce about 4 cfm. (Note: check your local refrigeration laws before using this devise as it may be illegal in some places) I have Federal EPA refridgeration licenses and use only EPA certified equipment; I wont tell you how to use this device, figure it out for yourself. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1338206224.jpg Air Vacuum Pump with R134A and R12 Connectors venturi-type AC vacuum pump removes moisture from air conditioning systems so you can safely add refrigerant. This vacuum pump is easy to operate, just connect an air line and the pump pulls full vacuum within 2 minutes. This vacuum pump is ideal for automotive air conditioners, home air conditioners, refrigerators, freezers, and more! •Includes 1/2" ACME (R134a) and R12 connectors •Vacuum level: 28.3" of mercury at sea level •Pump air consumption: 4.2 CFM @ 90 PSI •Air inlet: 1/4''-18 NPT Overall dimensions: 8-3/8" L X 5" W X 6-1/2" H |
They are crap. Don't work at all. If you are going to work on your system more than 1x every three years... spend the $200 and buy a real vacuum. NO professional would ever recommend one of these vacuums. Recommending this Turd only harms your credibility, Reid. I had one, threw it away after the first use... also if you don't have compressed air, you cant use this at all... Is this what you use to test your new product? I sure hope not! if someone is buying a $30 vacuum, they may not have compressed air. You get what you pay for. Learned that with the Griffith experience...
Again, if I was you id stop jumping all over the place and focus on your primary product. Stop posting until you have something... Quote:
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On the other hand why would you need a vacuum pump at all...? So, your 911 A/C refrigerant leaks down by next spring, just as long as it doesn't get to zero there is no way for the "atmosphere" to get in. Just buy 1 or 2 cans of R134a, with the low side pressure guage included, and recharge the system DIY. |
As I said, EVERYONE needs a (transportable) source of compressed air...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1338220407.jpg Compressor, Harbor Freight, ~$40. |
Pulling a good vacuum on the system beforehand is VERY important. Griffith's site provide the temp/pressure graph for the boiling point of water, and it requires a lot of vacuum, held for a long time, to get all the incidental water out of the system, *including* that amount adsorbed to the drier material. I have no idea what drier material GTI uses, but if it were molecular sieve (for example), it would take a lab vacuum at least an hour working at it's highest operating vacuum (new oil, all the fittings checked) to get the stuff to be 95% water-free. It would then take another hour to get down to 97%. And another hour to get to 98%. Etc.
Now let's talk about the volume of the 911 system - because the length of hose is so large, the volume to pump is larger, too. And the time required for a really good pump is a cube function of the volume pumped. Removing the surface-adsorbed water from the system is not a trivial task. |
The interface between vacuum device and refrigerant is less than optimal. hose switches, empty refrigerant hoses not exposed to the vacuum, leaves alot of margin for error and reentry of air into your system. i suppose its possible. but not likely.
Try running a vacuum pump for the hour plus recommended (based on the length of hose and components we have)... with one of these Reid shows and your air supply. Rennaire recommends two hours on a pump... good luck with that... you will run out of air long before you really have a good vacuum. I let my vacuum pump run for 2-3 hours so i am sure to get a good vacuum that is truly is a good vacuum. I then let it sit over night. Often Ill have to vacuum another 2 hours to truly get it all.... again.. try to do that with your air supply or that vacuum device. Guess its good you live in the pacific northwest. Quote:
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I AM NOT PROMOTING THESE DEVICES TO ANY ONE!!! I ONLY GAVE VERY LIMITED INFORMATION ABOUT!!!
My post was only factual information of something that will work EXTREMELY WELL to pull an acceptable A/C SYSTEM Vacuum and included disclaimers, and furthermore specifically stated I will not discuss how the use them for A/C purposes; because they are illegal for me to use them on an automotive system because I am Licenesed, but might not be for some of the readers here depending on their local government laws!!! I agree with you that anything that comes from harbor freight is CHEAP Chinese Throw away CRAP but I emphatically disagree with you that any simple air powered vacuum pump using the same exact technology is a piece of crap!!! They are one of the best hundreds of years old inventions in the world!~ Maybe you just got a defective one as often times happens with China crap? And if it was defective you could have easily exchanged it or returned it and tried another one. I am rather surprised it did not work really good for you, the design is almost full proof as there are no moving parts in it. I have given a few of these away to friends who are refrigeration or mechanical technicians and they all tell me the love them to pull down a refrigeration system that has be already opened. Respectfully to the readers here Do you EVEN Know what an EDUCTOR or EJECTOR IS??????????? Did you know Snap On tools has a similar technology device they sell that costs I think a bit over $300 or do as compared to the one I posted that is sold for less than twenty bucks? I am a marine engineer & I have been using similar devices in the marine engineering industries for more than 30 years for all kinds of applications, not just related to A/C; ANY mechanical engineer on the planet knows about Educators & Ejectors in their first year in school It’s obvious most people are rather ignorant of the value and hundreds of years use of vacuum ejectors! i.e Have you ever even seen or know about an ammonia refrigeration/ice making/freezing or A/C system???? Respectfully Apparently several comments here people are unfortunately ignorant of refrigerant evacuation and transfer equipment & methods used worldwide for the last 200 plus years. i.e. Ammonia was among the early refrigerants used in mechanical systems, and it's the only one of the early refrigerants to secure a lasting role as a refrigerant. Mechanical refrigeration was developed in the 1800s based on the principle of vapor compression. The first practical refrigerating machine using vapor compression was developed in 1834 and by the late 1800s refrigeration systems were being used in breweries and cold storage warehouses. The basic design of the vapor compressor refrigeration system, using ammonia as a refrigerant in a closed cycle of evaporation, compression, condensation, and expansion, has changed very little since the early 1900s. How do you think from 1834 before electricity and electric vacuum pumps was invented moisture was removed from ammonia refrigeration systems??? Answer educators and ejectors! when I am working on what is in the maritime industry called a “DEAD SHIP” (no generator no electricity, no engines, no battery , NO NADA except the compressed air stored for emergencies as well as for starting the main engines or generators in usually 2 large 350 ppsi air tanks) , on a dead ship in emergencies how do you think I transfer HEAVY BUNKER FUEL or diesel oil, remove the water in the bilges to keep the vessel from sinking in an emergency, transfer extremely dangerous liquid & gas cargos that absolutely cannot be pumped with a pump or the transfer would destroy the pump. Speaking of pumps how do you think I prime pumps that have lost their prime and are not self priming pumps or are self prim but wont self prim due to seal damage on a DEAD SHIP????????????????? Give up YET? YEP the same exact same 300 plus year old technology you state here DOES NOT WORK AND IS JUNK you can make with a couple of pieces of any kind of pipe or tubing and put a T in the line and do some amazing things AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST ya ever heard of this little company called PARKER, that is one of the largest A/C manufacturing companies in the world? And do you know what this is made by this little company called PARKER>>>Parker - VACUUM EJECTORS Open your minds instead of slamming it shut because you are ignorant of something very useful, and go do a little reading about educators and ejectors they are one of the simplest inventions of all time, rarely clog and if they do they are extremely easy to clean, are easy to make yourself, they will last almost forever, and furthermore have hundreds of uses you will be amazed at if you learn about them including the ability to pull an excellent vacuum on an A/C System. Best regards, marine engineers do it better in the water |
Good luck Reid.
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A/C How Much Vacuum IS Enough
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As a registered techincian, it would seem to me like you should only ever suggest the legal recourse for any DIY AC install. Yet another reason why folks should only choose an established, reputable Porsche aftermarket AC provider. Like Rennaire or Griffiths. Both of which recommend high vacuum on the system, using modern vacuum-producing technology. |
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1338258614.jpg If you are right, take the humble side -- you will help the other fellow. If you are wrong, take the humble side -- and you will help yourself. |
Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condenser Technologies Compared To Serpentine Condensers
Personally I strongly believe Serpentine a/c Condensers for 911 Porsches Obsolete compared to the Parallel Flow Micro-Channel technology I use!
Every new car automotive manufacture in the world to the best of my knowledge has abandoned Serpentine a/c Condensers and switched for good reasons to Parallel Flow Micro-Channel technology ! I offer this proof to ANY Nay Sayers as only 2 examples of respected Scientific Test Comparison Studies and Examples among thousands of readily available worldwide via the internet that definitively render Serpentine Old-fashioned less efficient technology compared to Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condensers technologies http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1640&context=iracc http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2025&context=iracc If you disagree with proven scientific facts prove it with scientific facts in a friendly way! |
Note: in test examples> http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2025&context=iracc
CTHX = continuous tube (serpentine) heat exchanger PFHX=parallel flow heat exchanger Quote:
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Reid, Unless I have missed something no one here has cast any doubts about the workability of your design project, nor the probability that your new design will improve the efficiency of ANY previously installed rear deck lid or front lip condensor.
That being said I suspect that the market has passed you by. Given th obvious limitations of the factory design regarding the location of those 2 condensors I would think you would have gone directly, as others already have, to a design using a "fender" location but inclusive of a good fan. |
1. cost? for each component? as well as in the kit? What is included in your kit? For example, If I change my condenser, Ill also need a drier and expansion valve. Will you sell the drier or will you have a vendor you work with on that? It would be pointless to change a condenser and not change old leaky hoses and o-rings. I guanantee you Reid, if you sell a condener, and a user doesnt get the performance you are advertising, they WILL blame you and your condenser. That is why Griff and Rennaire sell kits and why they disacourage small incremental changes unless everything has been upgraded already. Good way to gain a poor (word of mouth) reputation... not to mention lawsuits and returns.
2. weight? 3. selling points over a well designed kit by Griff and Rennaire who have already proven 35 degree temps WITH 95 degree ambients and "OLD" technology. for anyone who has ice cold AC in a hot climate and has spent $$ why would they dump a working system? Just because its newer technology? 4. What problem are you trying to solve? Does your product solve that problem? Poor vent temps are not a problem... Griff already solved that. So what is the problem this addresses? Is it the Griff cost? Can you really make a product that will last 10 years, provide 35 degree vent temps, and charge the consumer less than $289? 5. Have you done a market study/analysis? How many pre 89 911's are registered today, how many have an aftermarket kit like Griff? How many of the owners have owned their car for over 5 years (they probably wouldnt spend the $$ if they havent spent it in the first 5 years). What is your breakeven point for production numbers? Assume a $300 price point. 6. Have you prepared a technical Q&A with ALL questions answered? 7. Filter vs No Filter? if you site a list of filters from 20 years ago that doesnt fit a car made after 1998, you lose credibility. If you site AC manufacturers and words like "every" and "all" when in fact 5 of the 6 top manufactures (Toyota, VW, Honda, Ford, Chrysler) use no such device, you lose credibility. In fact, the ONLY car manufacturer that actually uses a filter in a post 2005 car is GM. 8. Fans vs No Fans? 9. Proof of your products superiority? if you site research for Serpentine Vs Yours and it doesnt even compare Serpentine but rather tube and fin, you lose credibility. 10. Non-Barrier hose issue? you give us pictures of a chinese vacuum pump and just tell us to add refrigerant every year? Seriously? That is not a solution. We keep asking the same questions over and over again. and we keep getting NON-ANSWERS and research that doesnt even relate to the questions. We are not idiots Reid. We can read. We can google. We can ask a Pro who has done this 1000 times. How many times have you done this? As much as a hard time as I give WWest, the guy actually designed an AC system. So stop trying to snow us by jumping from topic to topic and answer the questions... nuff said. |
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You seem to be fixated on the PFC efficiency issue w/o responding to the (very legitimate IMHO) questions others have raised re: the systemic efficiency of your HVAC system or its effects on other (e.g., intake air temp or engine cooling) systems. Until you stop ignoring these legitimate issues I can't view your claims with much credibility. |
This is really the only problem no system really solves... And it seems his "solution " will actually make this worse... A solution in search of a problem is what I see...
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Thanks for the link. That's a great experimental test of PFHX's. Since you brought this study up, I assume you would like to discuss the results. Out of the 6 PFHX's that were tested how many of them actually performed better than the CTHX as a condenser? (scientifically speaking of course....) |
NEWS RE: NEW PRODUCT Announcement 911 Front and Rear Fender & Front Side Bumper PFC’s
Due to several requests from 911 owners over the past year from hot climates with extreme ambient heat, and much consideration, I have decided to custom manufacture a new product line of State of the Art DESERT DUTY Parallel Flow Micro Channel condensers for Porsche 911’s
When I decide to make them available to the public in the future they will be made available either in a choice of single or dual core PFC No more information regarding this announce is available at this time |
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Here is a good summary... "However, there still exist the engineering problems such as condensate drainage, refrigerant distribution and frosting control to be solved in order to extend PFHX’s application to evaporator and heat pump in future." |
LOL. Just LOL
Reid, pretty sure Rennaire has the "desert duty" name trademarked. Im sure Jeff or Cab would have something to say about this. Id be careful. maybe you should call it a Fender Cat instead. Quote:
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Aaaaand, we're back to the beginning of the circle. Shall we go around one more time? |
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Howdy Flat Six, I was not ignoring you!!! You asked a very important question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am sorry I missed your question, there have been so many people just posting off topic things & crap here lately and others adding to the crap reposting quoted over and over it has gotten very difficult to read this tread for not only you, but also even me! If you had read all my posts to this tread from the very beginning and kept reading you would not have to ask this question related to oil temp, and heat rise caused by the PFC’s, because I specifically address this issue more than once. regardless On my 1975 911 last summer, In 92-95F ambient temps @ 99 % humidity and air vent temps constantly putting out in the low to mid 30s using R-134A, the engine compartment heat rise and engine OIL Temps was negligible heat rise over stock Porsche OEM components running R-12. Engine Oil temps always remained at no more than upper temp safe levels in all types of driving i.e. extended highway, expressways, road ways, side streets including stop and go driving. Furthermore in the 2 other 911’s Justin Stokes did installs of my PFC’s and testing (pictures are posted in the tread) again the heat rise to the engine oil temps was Negligible oil temp heat rise that remained within normal safe ranges. If you need to talk to Justin Stokes owner of Stokes Automotive here in Fort Lauderdale I can arrange this for you! |
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Why dont you check facts before you say things that are false hellooooo BTW I have no intention of using the words desert duty for a product name!, where you get these ideas is beyond me!!! |
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