Good artricle. Given this, I am surprised that more of these screen type filters do not exist for other automakers unless they are an afterthought and are just part of the compressor replacement process...

Howdy hcoles,

I see your in Calif, I am originally from Calif. Not sure of your summer temps in Saratoga are but I sure know how hot San Jose gets sometimes, near where you live along the coast is one of my favorate places in the world!

to put a fan on your rear condenser it only takes a few minutes to test this theory

If you think about it; dumping a ton of hot additional extra heat caused from installing extra blowers added to your rear decklid condenser into your engine compartment and at the same time greatly bypassing the effect of lowing oil temp affect by your front condenser, with an end result of a negligible air vent cooling benefit you might want to think again

You might want to also go look for the posts I did here last year on my 75 911 with high ambient temps in the mid 90s ambient and 99.9 % humidly that had info about no extra fans are needed on the rear deck lid condenser and that the engine fan is more than adequate if the rear deck lid condenser is completely sealed ,so that all incoming air into the engine compartment is all “first forced THROUGH THE REAR CONDENSER”; or any of the 3 DIFFERENT installs with pictures I posted here and notice they all have had my condenser fully sealed to the decklid with no additional fans. (been there/done that some time ago long before designing my PFC’s)

Personally from extensive testing on my 911 I have proven no additional fans are ever needed or that if they are added gives ONLY negligible effect (this also been proven by several other posters here at Pelican over time and considered to be common knowledge), so I view the subject as almost an old wives tale;

However if you want to talk about putting good high cfm fans on your front condensers this can offer real improvement, this is something that can prove to be highly beneficial, and even more so in stop and go driving and extended idling when talking on your cell phone parked ;)

Also hcoles fyi you might want to note the person you’re discussing ac cooling fans with and a/c cooling lives in the Pacific Northwest.

Sorry but I have seen the "black death" issue on Dodge and Chevy vehicles as well. Look on any major A/C parts sources and they will not honor any guarantee on A/C parts unless you change most all of the system out to get rid of the black death issue.

Joe A

AMA Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - Compressors Condensers Accumulators Expansion Va: Auto AC Compressor Failure (Black Death)

Read the above... these guys do it for a living in Arizona... Ford, GM and Chrysler...

"What is "Black Death"?
"Black Death," as it is known by A/C system service professionals, results from a catastrophic breakdown of the refrigerant-lubricant which in turn causes excessive wear inside the compressor. In a typical case of "Black Death," metal particles are circulated throughout the system contaminating other components and necessitating either thorough flushing or complete replacement. The swash-plate compressors used by Ford are particularly susceptible to this problem. Similar damage can also occur inside the compressors used in some GM and Chrysler A/C systems. "

My statement only pertained to the google search Reid specifically recommended, my search did not find anything other than the Ford one. I'll try again to be certain.

And the issue of ammonia odor vs remains....

The issue for me isnt whether there is black death or not. the issue for me is that no one else is installing filters to solve this issue.

So what problem do the filters solve...????

Which has absolutely no bearing on many of the questions at hand.

The vent temp issues does not need to be solved. Its already been solved by many. If you buy a complete kit from Griff you will get the higher air volume which is needed, the better evap, the better fan control, and even enhanced condenser system.

The issue is engine temps as it relates to AC.

if you spend your time creating enhanced deck lid condensers and it drives up engine temps, you will get very few sales.

if you spend your time addressing the lame fan on the front condenser and a creating replacement condenser for the rear deck I think youll have something. Even an enhanced front condenser is going to have marginal value becaue its really not the weak link if you have a Griff or Rennaire front condenser.

The thing I dont like about the ZIMS and Griff rear fender unit is that it sits right over the cat. so there is some loss of efficiency with that location. you put all that hot air in the engine bay, and then add your condenser 10 inches from the exhaust. Its just not optimal.

reinventing things that just make the weak areas weaker (rear deck) is really a solution in search of a problem. its not going to net you real world advantages.

I appreciate the "help" but I think my best response is to have my nephew fly up and drive the '88 back down to Olive Branch MS for a few years. By the end of summer we'll know if the cooling fan solution is really valid. On the other hand it will take at least 2 years, maybe more like 5, to know if the refrigerant leakage issue is resolved.

You do not have to "try it again," just go to the link I provided. These guys do it for a living in Arizona. It was 108 here yesterday and its only May 20th.

If they see it in Ford, GM and Dodge products... it might be worth believing...

Totally agree and thats why I am leaning towards putting a condensor in the LH wheel-well over the decklid. Why heat up the air going into the engine?

Regarding the Cat, would rather put the condensor in the fender well than main air intake and many of us do not have a cat on our engine, so thats a moot point for us.

Hey Joe,,

They completly missed what I threw out to help them;

YOU DIDN'T Miss Nada <GRIN> I know your here to be serious

I have decided to stop spoon feading here and make them find and do just a little reading and "black death" went right over their head and lazyness remains clueless

Black Death knowlege is rather redundant as everyone who works on any kind of a/c or refridgeratioin system has known about it almost forever as common knowlege

Furthermore it seems people here want to argue about a/c line filters, and I sit here and shake my head smiling

for your ice cold baby I want you to have 2 one in one out, I have been thinking about a 3rd but have not decided ?

This all very confusing....perusing the internet it appears that the "black death" term originated with the Ford FX15 compressors series, the horrid odor of the black goo formed by the combination of teflon "fines", system lubricant, and refrigerant under HEAT.

But now the term seems to have evolved outside the A/C specialist community to mean compressor grenading for any reason whatever.

The actual difference in addressing the 2 separate problems is more definitive.

With the black goo issue the only really viable answer seems to be to replace all of the components. Whereas with "standard" compressor "grenading" flushing and insertion of the simple screen filter seems to be a satisfactory solution.

Teflon is not an easy thing to deal with "adhesion wise" so my guess would be that the FX15's teflon formulation did not adhere to the metal compressor components as well as was required.

Please note that the failure type/description here does not match the "original" failure description for "black death", the formation of black goo, highly odorous GOO.


AMA Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - Compressors Condensers Accumulators Expansion Va: Auto AC Compressor Failure (Black Death)

Howdy hcoles,

I have tried to keep discussion regarding adding fans in the deck lid out of here because I view them as point less, or should I say almost useless!

For those still interested in deck lid electric fan topics I think it should be taken some place else seperately @ Pelican and not dumped here in my thread where the topic is new technology hi tech condensers (PFC's)!

I see your in Calif, I am originally from Calif. Not sure of your summer temps in Saratoga are but I sure know how hot San Jose gets sometimes, near where you live along the coast is one of my favorate places in the world!

to put a fan on your rear condenser it only takes a few minutes to test this theory

If you think about it; dumping a ton of hot additional extra heat caused from installing extra blowers added to your rear decklid condenser into your engine compartment and at the same time greatly bypassing the effect of lowing oil temp affect by your front condenser, with an end result of a negligible air vent cooling benefit you might want to think again

You might want to also go look for the posts I did here last year on my 75 911 with high ambient temps in the mid 90s ambient and 99.9 % humidly that had info about no extra fans are needed on the rear deck lid condenser and that the engine fan is more than adequate if the rear deck lid condenser is completely sealed ,so that all incoming air into the engine compartment is all “first forced THROUGH THE REAR CONDENSER”; or any of the 3 DIFFERENT installs with pictures I posted here and notice they all have had my condenser fully sealed to the decklid with no additional fans. (been there/done that some time ago long before designing my PFC’s)

Personally from extensive testing on my 911 I have proven no additional fans are ever needed or that if they are added gives ONLY negligible effect (this also been proven by several other posters here at Pelican over time and considered to be common knowledge), so I view the subject as almost an old wives tale;

However if you want to talk about putting good high cfm fans on your front condensers this can offer real improvement, this is something that can prove to be highly beneficial, and even more so in stop and go driving and extended idling when talking on your cell phone parked <griN>

Also hcoles fyi you might want to note the person you’re discussing ac cooling fans with and a/c cooling lives in the Pacific Northwest and it basically is not hot there and 911 A/C is not realy needed.

I am going to suggest you move this discussion elseware

ok. I am about done even looking at this tread.

we have gotten lost in the noise. here are my questions for Reid.

1. What is the filter solving? Proof that the problem it is solving exists? Proof that the filter solves it?
2. what is the status of the front condenser fan upgrade?
3. What are you leaning towards? A kit in the left front fender that replaces the deck? or an improved deck that will just add more heat to the engine bay? if the later, have you measured engine temps, 1. with ac with stock behr, ac with yours, without ac on?
4. Have you created 5-6 kits that you will test over a hot summer in a variety of cars in a variety of driving conditions?

Your answer to these questions will determine whether 95% of us say "thanks but no thanks", or keep following along. black death, whether GM used a filter in 1998. none of this matters really if you dont have a product that solves a problem.

Again, please remember that ANYONE in ANY Ambients that has purchased a Griffiths or Rennaire kit are seeing 37 degree vent temps at 92 degrees ambient. So your vent temps sale isnt going to get it done.. Need to have a different value to add to the buyers experience....

Brad read your private email here I sent you, and call me I want to talk to you voice about some things, and I want your imput on something to be discussed

You are absolutel right the noice has taken over,

1. Forget about the filter its not important to this tread
2. I have a new small underbody very high cfm small size fan I want to discuss for front condensers if you want but dont consider it all that important just wait, on another point this fan conversation by others going on in the tread is no more then a BS distraction to serious talking and that have nothing to do with anything related to me, except its a complete insane distraction that has got to go away
3 THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT >>> "FENDER CATS" will be discussed in a new thread we will make with everyone staying on topic! You had a good idea at the right time <grin> by the way do you know Joeaksa? I want you to get to know if you dont and I want both of you in a new thread for serious on topic discussions by adults with a common interest, although I dont know him I want to try to get Jim Sims to join us(smile); I am up to something that is not yet quite ready for prime time but need to move fast before it gets much hotter
4. No Kits Yet cant tell you when, KOOL CATS will be discussed in a different thread

....

The battle Reid is "fighting" is basically the same as applies to Griffiths and/or Rennaire. The Value pricing of Reid's snake oil will decline quite precipitously if it proves out that the 2 deck lids fans, <$50, provide the same adequate A/C capability as Griffiths/Rennaire. Especially so if it turns out, as I suspect it might, the the fans can also be used to solve the refrigerant leakage problem.

Not saying by any means that Griffiths and Rennaire have been selling snake oil, just that's what their product, and Reid's will become.

....

I apologize - I was not in any way attempting to assist you. I was merely pointing out that the climate a poster happens to reside in doesn't change the physics of an automotive AC system, nor does it change how a particular person/company approaches selling automotive AC components.

Reid seems to harbor the common misconception that the "Pacific Northwest" is somehow uniform in climate. Talk to someone in the Tri-Cities, or Lewiston, or Boise about how hot it doesn't get in the summer, and how short that hot season is.

LOL.

No apology required/needed.

But...

You have to have lived (and worked outdoors) in the deep south for a few summers in order to understand the quite radical difference in climate. here in WA we have the wet side and the dry, your(95% VFR), side. Where I was raised in NE AR we would have day after day of 100F+ temperatures with humidity close too 100%. Rains were a welcome event but the immediate aftermath was nothing short of stiffling.

Spent a summer in Alabama as part of my mostly-misspent youth. I understand 100F/100% humidity.

And yes, the desert West made me understand that there really is a difference when someone says "but, it's a *dry* heat." :)

Brad I would like to first sincerely thank you for your recent support!!!

I absolutely could not agree with you more!!!! As far as I am concerned the noise can keep it

I will send you a second private message, you have not replied to my first, I want to talk to you!

I have put up with “ENOUGH OF THIS NOISE”; it’s simply not worth the aggravation of having to wade through it!!!!

This tread was my Journey or should I say journal to possibly publish some day.

I created this tread a year ago with the sole intent and purpose of informing people about what I was doing to make my 75 911 colder a much better way after slowly doing several years of technological research and attempting to share it with others, I am more than satisfied being extremely successful with what I had been doing & accomplished you might say I am proud of it, then inform people of the world how much PFC’s were better than any other current & past available technology IS regardless of cost, and to discuss its application, installation and interaction on 911s for making the early 911 A/C system cold.

Well,,, I am confident I have successfully accomplished this goal! I was just about to go into what I would call phase II; into an even newer level of PFC technology here that people do not know about.

But just decided because of the NOISE here I am not going to do it!

Unfortunately it’s gotten to the point the noise has rendered the tread untenable and taken it over.

I think it might be time to shut this tread down and let it die.

There have been more than 2 completely full pages in a row with tons of noise posts that have nothing to do with this treads stated intent or purpose and its made it so it’s no longer worth trying to read or posting anything worthwhile that is on topic, and anything I have posted just creates another problem and off topic more noise caused by a very few group of people.


kindest regards

Reid

I read the first few posts maybe you answered this but how light and efficient is your version? Will your system be available and when? Do you also replace other components beyond the condenser?

If you ever do decide to do something in the automotive realm, my most sincere suggestion is to do tests, including comparison tests, and long-term tests.

The comparison tests (on the same car, different set-ups run under approximately the same conditions) will speak for themselves, without any requirement for hype or repeated claims.

Long-term testing will be harder. You won't know if your design is automobile-robust for years, maybe.

If you want to blog about your journey, I suggest using something like Google's Blogspot, so that you can control the replies to your posts. Then you can link the blog here, and folks can follow your journey if they are interested, and you won't have to publish any of the comments that aren't to your liking.

Another suggestion is to dial back the marketing a little, and let the tech and results speak for themselves. If yor design is truly good, there won't be any doubt when numbers comparisons are made.

Good luck.

Other than "how light" he hasn't a clue to your other questions.

Good Advice.

Thanks Reid. Ill give you a call. Don't judge my critique as a slam. I think if you figure out how to answer all these hard questions... you could have something... and know that if I don't ask them then someone else will. The silver lining even in WWEST posts is that he makes some valid points... and you will always have skeptics. So take it alittle less personal and just try to answer them to the best you can prove with real data....

Hi DG,

My name is Reid

I greatly apologies to you for all the off topic and BS recent posts you have had to wade through by people that are clogging this thread at Pelican to find quality information here

Also I would like to thank you for asking excellent questions that are completely on topic here, it’s been awhile since really important questions were asked!!

I not sure how to answer regarding “how light”?, are you racing your car? Anyway my condensers are much lighter because they are made with high quality aluminum over the OEM or other aftermarket old technology units, as far as i know I am the only one making custom designed PFC's for 911's in the world

My PFC’s have actually been available since early last year on a very limited production basis so I have not yet listed them at Pelican Parts yet and I have not sold any from here at Pelican either, but have finally been discussing this subject public sales again with them the other day and will talk to them again soon when their buyer rep calls me who has been busy.

My PFC’s have always been handmade custom built at least so far and only in very limited production. it has only been very recently that i have resolved prior production issue related to special welding changes that was greatly slowing me down but not stopping production, but again this has now been completely resolved where i can fill much larger than individual orders now. Still I am a very small company just starting up moving carefully and slowly because it’s all custom work at this point and high quality. If really needed I can actually produce several matched sets a day at this point,

anyway i realize you are probably an individual 911 owner, FYI I have a couple of front and rear matched sets ready now for installation on 2- 911’s, I have been waiting for them to bring their 911’s into my friends Porsche repair shop for their installations which is also planned to be publicly reported on here, but it’s been longer then they originally told me they were bringing in the cars for this service, due to their scheduling issues or the full report would have already been published here.

as far as my PFC efficiency goes you did not tell me how efficient compared to what?? so your making me guess not knowing exactly what you mean in your question, i.e. I do not know your knowledge or lack of it related to PFC's (Parallel Flow micro-channel condensers)

The technology I use is absolutely the very latest state of the art PFC technologies, PFC's generally are universally considered to be somewhere between 30-40 % more efficient to any other type of prior heat exchanger technology including tube and fin, serpentine, etc; furthermore the PFC surface area of any PFC can be about approx 25 % smaller than any prior condenser technology ever made and still be 30-40 % more efficient than any technology made before it.; this reason this is important is because smaller size approx 25% PFC’s have efficiencies of approx 25 % larger surface area than ANY older technology heat exchangers! the reason 911s don’t have cold a/c is because they do not have enough condenser surface area in the OEM places because there is simply no room.

My Hi Tech PFC’s technology greatly overcomes the shortfall of early 911 Porsches Body Design greatly limited condenser surface area by approximately 25 % or more related to service area, coupled with let’s say approx 35 % plus (for simplicity sake) more efficiency over a 25 % larger older technology condenser (which is a double improvement for 2 different reasons). Btw these claims I have stated are scientifically accepted acknowledgements accepted by worldwide leading universities who have done extensive scientific studies regarding PFC technology and these are basically the accepted standards and have been verified all over the internet.

bottom line my PFC's are more efficient than anything manufactured anywhere that will fit in the available room of the OEM condenser area spaces for early model 911s

Note: the stated word “approx” is an approximation or a rough calculation only, and not a specific and may slightly vary in different installations due to several factors.



if you want I would be happy to talk to you about your concerns and answer your questions related to my PFC technology etc

my number in Fort Lauderdale is 954-599-5235 email captainengineer@earthlink.net

Best regards,

Captain Reid Kelly Chief Marine Mechanical Engineer USCG Licensed

I guess I was wrong, he doesn't even know, can't state, the weight.

Not snake oil, more like vaporware.

Contamination in a 911/930 ac refrigerant system is not as common as compared to the 944/951 or 928. Inspection of the existing compressor oil, compressor ports, drier inlet and outlet ports usually provides a reasonable clue as to whether contamination is present.

AC refrigerant line filters have been around for many years and typically marketed toward vehicle brands and models that have higher incidents of compressor failure. There are many different approaches: a fine screen, alike a thimble shape, inserted in the inlet port of the compressor ,or an inline filter alike this:
In Line Filter example
A filter does not guarantee a clean system, typically when contamination is found it can be through out system and in either case AC liquid flushing is required.

The issue with condenser design when it comes to liquid flushing a system is that PF designs are the most difficult to clean out, serpentine and tube and are much easier to flush: same holds true for evaporator's: plate and fin (as found in the Boxster/996 and later models) are very difficult to flush as compared to serpentine or tube and fin designs in the 964/993 and 911/930.

The "black death" scenario can be found in many brands and models of compressors, such as the 944/951 and 928 being more common, however it can occur in the 911/930. When you find this type of contamination its usually a sign of either improper service or a system problem: man-method or material.

Wayne's a smart guy. If I were going to make a guess, I would guess that we won't be seeing Reid's stuff in the PP 911 parts catalog for quite some time.

It's just a guess. :)

Reid, I have an 86 Carrera and I gave up on the AC about a year after I bought it in 1998. I had it recharged but was told that it leaked freon due to holes in the hoses. Since filling it and watching it leak is not good for me or the ozone I stopped worrying about it a just rolled down the window.

The 911 design does not allow for extensive luxury items and I don't really need them but I would like to see a modern, small, light weight and efficient AC design that works. I don't think that driving in 90-100 degree weather at high noon in a traffic jam is really fair for any AC but I do think that some cooling would be nice.

The condensers seem to be only a part of the system. What about the compressor, hoses and the evaporator and the blower and all of the related system parts? It should be possible to make a small compact unit driven by electricity and using the latest coolant that doesn't need the tangle of hoses and wires. All I am asking is to reduce the ambient air temp by say 30 degrees and reduce the humidity.

The statement that Reid has made that we have been attempting to refute is:

"...Special A/C line filters CAN GREATLY help prevent BLACK DEATH..."

"SPECIAL" A/C line filters...

Quite clearly Reid was NOT referring to the simple screen filters that can be used, are commonly used, to filter out, trap, metalic "fines". The way I took it Reid was talking about a filter to block the black odorous GOO that results from the combination of teflon molecular level "fines", compressor lubrcant, and refrigerant, under HEAT.

You're the A/C GURU here, so how do you read this and what would be your suggested solution for preventing, or correcting for, the formation of Black goo as defined above and in the media.

I have used these for a suction line filter with no adverse effects on performance.

Parker - SUCTION LINE FILTER DRIERS

PTFE-based piston coatings
on wobble and swash plate designs, lacking sleeves and rings, such as the 911/930 Nippondenso, have been used for many years by various compressor manufacturers. This anti friction coating helps prevent pre-mature wear when the system starts up until the refrigerant/oil mix moves through the compressor. The coating is not 'thick', measured in microns.

The "BLACK DEATH" scenario can be seen in various makes/model of cars, it is not unique to one specific car. It occurs when the piston coating wears off. And, what can also found in the 'black' is: (i) fine aluminum particles, (ii) brass from swash or wobble plate bearings, and (iii) rubber particles and carbon when refrigerant hoses have tired. Simply put BLACK DEATH can be anything mentioned above as well as all ‘things’ at once.

If a compressor decides to have a BLACK DEATH funeral the plague moves typically "north", from compressor through lines through condensers, into the drier and sometimes out of the drier, into the expansion valve, through the evaporator and back to its host... the compressor. In many cases, depending upon how long the body (compressor) has been allowed to further die and grenade, the receiver drier can act as a filter and trap much of the contaminants.... to a point. The finer the particles the further they go and this means past the drier. The longer the system operates the worse things get and farther the junk goes, sometime around and around ! The plague can travel south as well. If compressor decides to leave this world contamination inside of it can be pulled up into the suction line when the system is turned off by ‘backwash’.

Filters vs. Screens:
A filter or screen is only as good as the size the particles (measured usually in microns) that it can trap and the size of the filter... how much it can hold.
The problem with filters and screens is 'clog'. If the filter or screen is too small and a dam develops inside then everything behind it builds up and that means back pressure. So if you have a compressor that is trying to pump and there is a dam in front of it, that means higher system pressures and with that comes breaks and leaks. On the other side, as the compressor is trying to pump stuff north, down south the pressure drops, that means not enough refrigerant/oil flow coming back to the compressor hence a quicker death or catch22.

Benefit of a "Filter or Screen":
Assuming you have a large enough size filter with a small enough size micron rating, "possibly" anything in front of the filter might be saved from the plague, such a PF condenser that is a real PITA to try to liquid flush out its contaminants, possibly the drier and possibly the expansion valve and evaporator and any lines north of the filter. This in theory would save you the time and expense of liquid flushing components south of the filter, in theory. What ever filter/screen design and size you choose it must not reduce the flow of refrigerant/oil through the system or system pressures will rise on one side and drop on the other where you don't want them to.
And, if you add a filter on the suction side chances are you building your house from the roof down rather than from the foundation up: If the compressor grenades the flow of contamination travels north through the system back to the filter. Does that make sense? You will still have to liquid flush the entire system.
If you added the filter on the suction side to a system that was already contaminated, does that make sense? That would be a band aid.

How to Prevent the BLACK DEATH:
Just a few common causes and solutions

Cause: Old compressor
Solution: Inspect what you have or get a new one.

Cause: not enough oil
Solution: add oil

Cause: not enough refrigerant/oil flow
Solution: add refrigerant, add a low pressure switch

Cause: excessive high side pressure
Solution: more condenser area, more air flow through the condenser, add a high pressure switch,
don’t overcharge the system

Cause: any of the above or more
Solution: right man, right materials, right methods; no short cuts!

Joe In your particular case after discussing it with you for a year, you have some interesting options I will further discuss with you privately,

There is something NEW I want to talk to you about I have been thinking about for some time I believe will work that would satisfactory lower the temps thrown off by the rear deck lid condenser I won’t mention here for obvious reasons; I don’t think anyone has ever considered or tried at least as far as I know, or no one has tried this at least as far as i know on a 911 from all the years reading re-911s & a/c. I have decided to try this AND Coupling it with the technologies I am using I believe it is worthwhile to pursue; I will have to talk to you about this privately and think you will find it more than interesting GRIN

What we are working on together, I have decided not to talk about it here publicly due to all the unwanted noise here, and just leave everyone clueless about what we are attempting to do. Children disrupting this thread have damaged it for everyone else to know about!!!

Reid, thanks for the post. If we are going to do something together, its time to do it right NOW. Have sent three emails in the last week and have not heard back from any of them. It was 106-108 degrees here last week and is down to the point where its time to put something on the car. Stopped by a friends place two days ago and he is putting his Griffiths system on this week on his 911.

Please email me this weekend. If I do not hear anything by Monday evening will be ordering parts from other sources. I need to get A/C on the car now.

Thx, Joe

Joe, I couldn't be happier with the parts and service I got from Griffiths. Fast shipping, excellent after-sale support, and very patient with the dumb questions.

Before you commit to Reid, at least talk to Charley. You'll be buying stuff from either Charley or Rennaire anyway, due to the fact that Reid doesn't supply "the other stuff" like barrier hoses.