factory short shift locking in 5th

[theiceman]

Scott that just does not look incorect . Can you humour me and just loosen that allen screw at the front of the housing ? does it allow the lever to go back at all ? I am just curious about the geometry

[doppel]

Iceman, I will definitely try loosining that up tonight to see if it will allow it to pass.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

it's a whole different operation for the spring loaded detent lever when it enters 5th, opposed to getting it out of 5th. if you had one in front of you, you would understand.
why is it a hack job sherwood? you carefully grind the tab down to the proper size, like on the old shifter, and it works. you don't have to bend the handle. voila! done!

Nothing personal John. I just wanted to get to the source of the issue; not really sure I understand the symptom other than "can't shift out of 5th". Could be the spring tension is such that on the bench, it isn't easy to compress the 5th/Rev. spring as opposed to it bolted onto the tunnel. The width of the lever arm is wider than on regular levers, but that's what it is on all the short shift levers from the factory, and by itself, shouldn't normally prevent the lever from engaging 5th or reverse.

BTW, I meant bending the arm that's welded on the lever (if that's the issue), not the lever itself.

Sherwood

[doppel]

Sherwood, nothing to do with spring compression, The lever is locked into position as the pawl is rotated all the way back until it bottoms out and the tabs won't clear one another.
S

[doppel]

Wayne, something else to note, the locking pawl on the FSS pawl plate looks a bit different than my old one (which I have no idea of knowing whether is stock or not). The general shape is the same but it appears to be a bit larger than the other one. I am not sure if the lock pawl plate is supposed to be different than stock but assume so since it is part of the kit.

[javadog]

What's the part number on the top of it?

JR

[KTL]

I had this same problem on the short shift kit I bought from Pelican earlier this year. I did the same thing. Fiddled with it for awhile with the entire housing removed from the car and sitting on my bench/lap. Not a coupler issue whatsoever. It's the width of the gate tab on the shift lever.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by KTL

I had this same problem on the short shift kit I bought from Pelican earlier this year. I did the same thing. Fiddled with it for awhile with the entire housing removed from the car and sitting on my bench/lap. Not a coupler issue whatsoever. It's the width of the gate tab on the shift lever.

FWIW, here are some add'l data points to contribute to the mix:

I measured the width of the lever arm from a short shift lever and it's 19.24mm.

Other standard factory lever arm widths were in the following range:
16.83mm, 16.76mm and 16.69mm

For reason known only to WM, their short shift lever arms are really thin. I'd guess in the neighborhood of 10mm wide.

If the current lever arm in question is much wider than 19mm as suspected and that's the only issue, I'd take John Walker's sage advice and trim the width accordingly.

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

[phiba]

I too recently upgraded with this same kit, purchased from Pelican. I had the exact same problem. I took my Dremel tool and trimmed back the forward side of the tab welded onto the shift lever, just enough to clear the blocking tab on the gate when shifting back to neutral, and then cleaned it up with a hand file. Works great now. I figure if I ever find a factory-correct shift lever, this part is relatively easy to change out. I'd say it is a manufacturing defect. Wayne, if your vendor offers to provide corrected parts, I'd sure like to get one too.
Phil

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by doppel

Wayne, something else to note, the locking pawl on the FSS pawl plate looks a bit different than my old one (which I have no idea of knowing whether is stock or not). The general shape is the same but it appears to be a bit larger than the other one. I am not sure if the lock pawl plate is supposed to be different than stock but assume so since it is part of the kit.

AFAIK, the carrier plate for the FSS is the same as used in the standard shifter. The operation of this pawl only relies on the lever itself to either block or allow access to reverse. The shorter throws or the wider lever arm have no bearing on how the lock pawl operates. Yeah, the suspected larger pawl arm will decrease the travel for the lever to move into neutral.

Try replacing the newly-installed "FSS" carrier plate with the previous carrier plate and see if that works.

If indeed the reverse lock pawl on the "factory" short shift carrier plate is the culprit, please contact your parts source and let them know. This will avoid many customer relations issues now and in the future.

Sherwood

[doppel]

Originally Posted by theiceman

Scott that just does not look incorect . Can you humour me and just loosen that allen screw at the front of the housing ? does it allow the lever to go back at all ? I am just curious about the geometry

Iceman, I backed the adjustment screw out so it had maximum play and it did not solve the problem. But, the tabs almost cleared. That was certainly very clever geometric thinking!

[theiceman]

Originally Posted by doppel

Iceman, I backed the adjustment screw out so it had maximum play and it did not solve the problem. But, the tabs almost cleared. That was certainly very clever geometric thinking!

Thanks for checking that .. it was worth a try guess you are getting the dremmel out now

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by doppel

Wayne, something else to note, the locking pawl on the FSS pawl plate looks a bit different than my old one (which I have no idea of knowing whether is stock or not). The general shape is the same but it appears to be a bit larger than the other one. I am not sure if the lock pawl plate is supposed to be different than stock but assume so since it is part of the kit.

Before you go doing any grinding, try the easy thing. Swap out the top plate/pawl assy with your old one! After all, the plate is nothing technically special. It's just a plate to hold the springs down under tension and a pawl. You already stated the one that came with the kit had a pawl that looked different, so try the old one. Nothing to lose except the tedious procedure of holding down the plate under spring tension, while attempting to attach the hold down nuts! ARGGH!
I installed a factory SS kit a month or so ago and used my old top plate becuse the new plate was still laying in the box when I was done. After looking over my "mistake" , I concluded there was no reason to take it back apart, as it worked perfectly! Give it a try!
As for backing off the hex screw that adjusts the "cage", the screw was an update to the older shift tower to allow adjustment of the cage. The early tower only had a couple of tension washers to keep the cage clearence minimal, but they became sloppy over time, ergo the adjustment hex screw. The screw should be adjusted for a minimum of play without the cage binding up.

[uwanna]

You also might want to check the part numbers on both of your top plates. The only number in PP is 911 424 063 04. Catalog states fits all '74-'86 shifters.
I looked at mine, and the new SS plate and the old stock one are the same number! If your new one has a different looking pawl than the old stock one, as you stated, perhaps there was a manufacturing defect in the new pawl assy.

[doppel]

Voila!

I finally got around to replacing the new lock pawl plate (left in image) with the old lock pawl plate and the tabs clear by about 2-3mm, Yes!

The new plate has B+H stamped on it which I know to be a german stamped sheetmetal supplier and has the correct porsche number stamped in 911 424 06304. The old plate, unfortunately, does not have a number stamped in anywhere, so not sure if it is aftermarket or original Porsche????? As you can see from the pictures, the lock pawl looks similar but is actually quite different in its geometry.

My best guess is that the lock pawl changed at some point in time, because it seems from what others have reported, that the width of the tab on the factory short shifter has been pretty consistent over the years.

In any event, the current FSS kit has a problem that needs to be resolved.

Thanks everyone for their help.

Wayne, glad to help out where I can, you know how to contact me.

PS. to Uwanna serindipitous that you forgot to replace the top plate, lucky you!

Scott

[phiba]

The lock pawl plate I took out of my '78 I'm fairly certain is the factory original, and like yours, it has no part number on it. I would question why the kit would include another one of these if it is supposed to be exactly the same as the standard one. Unlike bushings, pivot pins, and springs, it is not a high-wear item. Ah well, I suppose the main thing is that it works. As JW suggests, no point in over-analyzing things.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by phiba

The lock pawl plate I took out of my '78 I'm fairly certain is the factory original, and like yours, it has no part number on it. I would question why the kit would include another one of these if it is supposed to be exactly the same as the standard one. Unlike bushings, pivot pins, and springs, it is not a high-wear item. Ah well, I suppose the main thing is that it works. As JW suggests, no point in over-analyzing things.

The carrier plate, the neoprene buffer plate under it and the pivot pin are also the same pieces from the standard shifter. Perhaps PAG felt it'd be easier to justify the MSRP with more stuff in the kit. In fact, if one were to buy just the shifter block, but for 4 bucks less (or do they give you $4?), they throw in all the other pieces. That's a deal.



Hey, this is a tech forum. Forum participants, as demonstrated by their high post count, are afflicted with OCD and over-analysis. We revel in it. Visit PARF and see grown men, in effect, argue at length with a blank wall.

Sherwood

[Wayne 962]

I personally think that the tab may be slightly off, although your experiment with the lock plate swap seems to go counter to this. I'm really not sure about the differences in the lock plate - I think maybe at one time there were different versions of this over the years. The only way to know would be for me to check the microfiche (which I do have tucked away). Right now, the lock plate is the same for all the 915 cars, PN: 911-424-063-04.

The only solution for me as a supplier is to take back the kit and send a complete new one (or we might be pulling these off the shelf, so it would just be a refund and no exchange). I can't mix and match parts, as these are sold as a complete kit. So, we can do that if you'd like. Honestly, if it were me, I'd chalk it up to a fluke and simply grind the tab and be done with it - it's a bear to take these things apart with the springs and everything.

I called my supplier on this, and he would like to get the complete kit back (every single piece), so that they can take it to a shop and test install it in a car. But I told him that was probably not the best solution for the customers because that would require removing the kit from the car and installing a whole new one that may or may not have the problem fixed. He mentioned that they have sold a ton of these over the past several months with no complaints, so this problem may be intermittent.

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

One more thought - just because a 30+ year old lock plate on the shifter all of a sudden works with the new kit doesn't necessarily mean that the problem is with the new lock plate. The old one may be slightly worn out from years of use, and the new one may be in the "proper" position (hinting at a tab mis-positioning).

-Wayne

[javadog]

I've noticed that the mounting holes on the new lock plate are elongated, not round, as the originals were. Perhaps this allows the plate to be mounted far enough to the left that it hinders the lever movement.

That's the only difference that I could see.

JR