CIS to EFI-ers I need your help

[millarg]

I need help in sorting through the options for my 78SC.
The car has been badly neglected over the last 5 years and as a result was most recently not running – would start but not run.
I’ve pulled out the entire CIS system and intake manifold and discovered that the throttle boot had dry rotted and was clearly the problem (or one of them).
Overall the entire system does not look good, anything that can rust or rot has or is, one good point is the SS Webb designs airbox, which is like new.
So I am thinking about replacing with an EFI system – let me point out straight away that budget is a major limiting factor. But I feel that by the time I replace everything need on the CIS system, I’ll be half way to an EFI upgrade, yet still have all of the issues inherent to the CIS – though honestly, living in the Virgin Islands I don’t experience the big changes in ambient temp which seem to cause some of the CIS's problems.
I have read all that I can find here on the BITZ kit and have joined their yahoo group. This kit appeals as it seems to be close to idiot proof having everything necessary to complete in a weekend – it was developed and built on a 78SC (which gives me extra comfort).
I’m not a purist and would want to go for the clean look, however I don’t want to cut up the perfectly good SS airbox, so I’ve been considering going with a 3.2 intake manifold, but have read that this requires extra (unspecified) work – I’ll be doing this myself, so if machining is required then I would have to pass on this option. A side benefit of the 3.2 being a few more horses, plus cost effective in that it’ll come with injectors, also I’d sell the good parts of the original CIS to offset.
But I’m aware that the BITZ system does not do ignition, which I really want to upgrade also, it would seem “cleaner” to have the fuel injection and ignition handled by the same unit, I know that the Megasquirt system is capable, but that BITZ does not offer this at the moment.
By using a 3.2 intake manifold, which has the electronic injector and fuel runners is it possible for a fairly competent guy with modest skills to build an EFI system directly from components or should I just go BITZ and MSD?
I really don’t plan on doing anything crazy with the car (no track time ), A/C and heater are gone, would plan to get rid of the heat exchangers and replace with headers (suitable for street everyday use) and then put her on a diet – but nothing crazy, just looking to have a reliable fun car and not break the bank.
So I’m soliciting advice from Bitz-ers and DIY EFI-ers, links to info would be great, must admit that I have not delved into the Megasquirt community as yet.
Thanks in advance and apologies for the long post.

[Scott R]

I don't want to discourage you from EFI, it's a fine choice. However given that you want to work on a tight budget, why not get a complete used CIS system from the classified section? I realize shipping is probably not ideal to where you live, bit I would think it would be a lot less than an EFI setup.

[brads911sc]

lots of opinions on this...

tbitz is outdated, cheap and re-uses parts that are NLA. The MS has been on MS3 for a year now and there were three or four major upgrades introduced since the version in his kit. You cant even get the version he uses from the mainstream MS sellers unless he has upgraded in the last year. When I looked at them they were still using MS1 and MS3 was already out. If you want cheap. his is hands down ok. if you want the newest, using new parts, not NLA parts, and want to do things like control spark his is not the way to go...

In the end, EFI will range from 3k -10k (tbitz on the low end and motec, haltech, Electromotive on the high end)... depending on your hardware, ability to tune yourself, and whether you want to use all new parts. As an example, you can spend anywhere from $150 - $400 just on injectors... they are not included in his kit. I use MS 2, V 3.57, PMO hardware, Summit Racing Stainless hardware, and top grade regulators, injectors, sensors, etc and mine ran 6k all in... If I had done haltech or similar it would have easily been 2k more. I did the tuning myself. Alot of variability here but you get what you pay for...

This is not a project for the faint of heart...

[millarg]

Thanks Scott,
I suppose that I am intimidated by the numerous components of the CIS and like the simplicity of instillation, power advantages and fuel benefits fo the EFI (particularly the Bitz kit).

I'm giving myself a $3K budget to do as much as humanely possible - anyway you slice a Bitz installation will be $2250 (which takes into account residual value of CIS system) - the 3.2 intake upgrade is actually a cost effective option since it'll come with fuel injectors which are a Bitz extra - and will allow for selling my SS airbox, which is likely the most valuable part of the old CIS.

The 3.2 intake and Megasquirt 3 processor complete with harness, O2 sensor etc will come to about $1400, but then I have to put it all together, wondering if this is a resonable undertaking for a first timer at such projects.

[millarg]

Thanks Brad,
Part of my rationale for the 3.2 intake is the injectors, fuel runners, harness will all be pre assembled or at least easily reassembled.
With a megasquirt 3, I presume that I can use their harness (which is very well market and documented) and connect to the 3.2 injector harness or reuse the injector connectors - using the existing harness as a guide.

I would need an intial settings grid (matrix) but with a wideband O2 sensor, I'm hoping I'd be able to tune using the megatune software.

Understand that all of this is easier said than done - just wondering if it is a resonable undertaking - I would be doing this myself with no local or porsche capable assistance. So pelican would have to become my homepage.

Again the car would be a daily driver on an island 15 miles by 5 where the longs stretch of straight road is about 300 yards!

I would anticipate undertaking the fuel injection, hopefully stabilizing then, when my hair grows back, integrate the ignition.

[euro911sc]

My favorite EFI thread:
My Triumph Speed Triple project update

Perhaps Al could machine the parts for your use...

-Michael

[bullethole]

I did the tbitz kit for $1800. Yes the MS1 is old, but he gives great support and I would highly recommend it. No machining necessary. You will see a difference. I'm in the process of procuring a 3.2 intake to migrate to, but will continue with the Tbitz setup (his settings in the controller are for the specified injectors, so if you use stock, you will have to figure those out - others surely have) in stage 1 of the upgrade (i already have an Electromotive XDI box). I will then upgrade to a MS3 since it has imo more fine grained tables so i can get better control over the enrichment bins (there are more entries in the tables). I will ultimately go to the MS3 for ignition, since i like the ability to tune the ignition from the laptop. But i'm a very satisfied TBitz customer.

[bullethole]

forgot to mention add $200 for the wideband.. and IMO you should ONLY use a wideband.

[sjf911]

I don't have any personal experience with the Bitz kit but it appears to be the least involved conversion option. The Carrera fuel injectors are Low-Z injectors so you will need anticipate this as a departure from the Bitz kit if you plan to reuse them.

[Tippy]

With a $3k budget, I'd think you could easily put a MS system in your car.

Although, I've never converted one, there isn't that much to them.

I would think the harder part is tuning, not putting the components on.

[scarceller]

I've done tons of tuning on these cars and my advice is you will spend the $$$ on the tune to do it right. So unless you can find a EFI system with a great tune already built for your engine your in for a boat load of work to get properly done tune. It's not just Idle, Part Throttle and WOT that needs tuning it's all the other little stuff like idle control strategy, cold start, acceleration enrichment/enleanment, ignition trims during acel and decel, ... the list goes on. And not to mention getting the ignition timing correct requires a lot of dyno time on a load dyno.

I don't mean to discourage you but cheap is not going to get this done. If you really want to goto EFI find a system that has a pre-built tune for your motor. If you don't you won't be happy in the end.

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by scarceller

I've done tons of tuning on these cars and my advice is you will spend the $$$ on the tune to do it right. So unless you can find a EFI system with a great tune already built for your engine your in for a boat load of work to get properly done tune. It's not just Idle, Part Throttle and WOT that needs tuning it's all the other little stuff like idle control strategy, cold start, acceleration enrichment/enleanment, ignition trims during acel and decel, ... the list goes on. And not to mention getting the ignition timing correct requires a lot of dyno time on a load dyno.

I don't mean to discourage you but cheap is not going to get this done. If you really want to goto EFI find a system that has a pre-built tune for your motor. If you don't you won't be happy in the end.

Couldn't he use the Bitz MegaSquirt system (which has a basic tune already) and add the ignition later to the MS?

[CaptainCalf]

Originally Posted by scarceller

I've done tons of tuning on these cars and my advice is you will spend the $$$ on the tune to do it right. So unless you can find a EFI system with a great tune already built for your engine your in for a boat load of work to get properly done tune. It's not just Idle, Part Throttle and WOT that needs tuning it's all the other little stuff like idle control strategy, cold start, acceleration enrichment/enleanment, ignition trims during acel and decel, ... the list goes on. And not to mention getting the ignition timing correct requires a lot of dyno time on a load dyno.

I don't mean to discourage you but cheap is not going to get this done. If you really want to goto EFI find a system that has a pre-built tune for your motor. If you don't you won't be happy in the end.

+1, I can tell you from my experience so far on my EFI project that doing it right wont come in anywhere close to $3k. Look around for a trusted local tuner and ask them which ECU they sell/tune and go with that. They can consult with you along the way and provide the wiring harness and sensors, etc...

The Beautiful Puzzle: 1987 3.3L 930 EFI Build

Once you get it all together hand it over to the tuner so they can set it up for ya

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by Tippy

Couldn't he use the Bitz MegaSquirt system (which has a basic tune already) and add the ignition later to the MS?

What does 'basic tune' mean? Who created it? Getting basic ignition values for the tune is not to hard to do, just take them from the 3.2L motronic 84-89 cars. If you search around you'll find the Idle, PartThrottle and WOT ignition maps. These should be enough to run the engine very well from a ignition point of view.

So if you are saying a tune is already available for the given engine for MegaSquirt and you trust the creator of the tune then sure, go ahead and use it.

[Tippy]

Captain Calf - what EFI are you using? Couldn't find.

Scarceller - Bitz gives you a basic tune and like you said, finding ignition curves should be easy.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by millarg

I need help in sorting through the options for my 78SC.
The car has been badly neglected over the last 5 years and as a result was most recently not running – would start but not run.
I’ve pulled out the entire CIS system and intake manifold and discovered that the throttle boot had dry rotted and was clearly the problem (or one of them).
Overall the entire system does not look good, anything that can rust or rot has or is, one good point is the SS Webb designs airbox, which is like new.
So I am thinking about replacing with an EFI system – let me point out straight away that budget is a major limiting factor. But I feel that by the time I replace everything need on the CIS system, I’ll be half way to an EFI upgrade, yet still have all of the issues inherent to the CIS – though honestly, living in the Virgin Islands I don’t experience the big changes in ambient temp which seem to cause some of the CIS's problems.
I have read all that I can find here on the BITZ kit and have joined their yahoo group. This kit appeals as it seems to be close to idiot proof having everything necessary to complete in a weekend – it was developed and built on a 78SC (which gives me extra comfort).
I’m not a purist and would want to go for the clean look, however I don’t want to cut up the perfectly good SS airbox, so I’ve been considering going with a 3.2 intake manifold, but have read that this requires extra (unspecified) work – I’ll be doing this myself, so if machining is required then I would have to pass on this option. A side benefit of the 3.2 being a few more horses, plus cost effective in that it’ll come with injectors, also I’d sell the good parts of the original CIS to offset.
But I’m aware that the BITZ system does not do ignition, which I really want to upgrade also, it would seem “cleaner” to have the fuel injection and ignition handled by the same unit, I know that the Megasquirt system is capable, but that BITZ does not offer this at the moment.
By using a 3.2 intake manifold, which has the electronic injector and fuel runners is it possible for a fairly competent guy with modest skills to build an EFI system directly from components or should I just go BITZ and MSD?
I really don’t plan on doing anything crazy with the car (no track time ), A/C and heater are gone, would plan to get rid of the heat exchangers and replace with headers (suitable for street everyday use) and then put her on a diet – but nothing crazy, just looking to have a reliable fun car and not break the bank.
So I’m soliciting advice from Bitz-ers and DIY EFI-ers, links to info would be great, must admit that I have not delved into the Megasquirt community as yet.
Thanks in advance and apologies for the long post.

Glen,

I don't see any major problem making your CIS work. If you have good CDI, WUR, FP, AAR, etc. which I believe could still be in good condition, there's no reason why you could not have a reliable CIS engine. The biggest problem you have is LACK of knowledge or understanding about CIS. Believe me, there is nothing difficult about getting a CIS engine run on demand. You could switch to any system you wish to have, they all have problems of their own too.

If you desire to switch to another system, that's OK. It's unfortunate that you live outside continental USA otherwise, you could take this offer. Send me your CIS engine with good parts and I'll make it run. If I failed to deliver my end, I'll pay the shipping back to you. This includes test run with a short video. So all you have to do is install it on your engine.

There is nothing difficult about CIS troubleshooting if you stop doing guess-work. It is so easy and simple. BTW, I charge a hefty $10 per hour rate for the test run. PM me if you need further assistance.

Tony

[proffighter]

This may be an alternative to the Bitz system:

Simple Digital System EM-5

Good support. I am almost finished with my conversion. you have 95% of the tuning within a few hours, maybe faster, because a turbo is more difficult to tune. You get a basis mapp wich is that got the car will start and can be driven.
I like the solution of no need for a laptop as well.

[millarg]

Many thanks for all the comments, I have decided to go with the Bitz kit, I appreciate its limitations, but quite frankly the limitations of my capabilities are probably much greater -as demonstrated by the non-working CIS system so the simplicity of the BITZ kit has won me over.
That said, I will also use the 3.2 intake and have found a great thread here where that path has already been blazed (and the parts fully listed ) - no need to re-invent the wheel or the phenolic spacer for that matter.
No doubt there will be a few curve balls, but hopefully my trusty SC will rumble back to life during mid-November.

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by proffighter

This may be an alternative to the Bitz system:

Simple Digital System EM-5

Good support. I am almost finished with my conversion. you have 95% of the tuning within a few hours, maybe faster, because a turbo is more difficult to tune. You get a basis mapp wich is that got the car will start and can be driven.
I like the solution of no need for a laptop as well.

You have a ballpark cost?

[al lkosmal]

Originally Posted by euro911sc

My favorite EFI thread:
My Triumph Speed Triple project update

Perhaps Al could machine the parts for your use...

-Michael

Thanks, I'm glad that you like the Speed Triple kit............., unfortunately, to date, I do not have enough people interested in buying this, to justify doing another machine shop run. All in, it ends up just over the $3K mark for a complete kit.

Re: EFI tuning/Megasquirt.............this is a great and versatile ECU, but.....and it's a big butt....you have to be willing to dig in, study and understand how it works...and how engines work, EFI works, ignition works to make it work right..I.E. you must take a systemic approach to tuning.

My recommendation, if you are truly a newbie.............I would either stay with the CIS (in my mind, a great and nice running system, if properly set up, with good components) or go with Tbitz. use a Bosch or MSD capacitive discharge ignition. Both are good, working, relatively simple systems. While you are enjoying driving around....you can be studying up on more advanced methods of incorporating EFI and ignition systems/tuning, etc.

That is what I did and after a few years of study, trial and error, empirical testing and several garage fires...I've worked my way up to baseline ignorance.

Good luck and have fun.

Later, you could do something like this. Here is a pic of my latest project...a little 3.6 with 46mm TWM ITB EFI intake and Ford EDIS ignition, using Megasquirt for the ECU.

Fire extinguishers are at the ready!

regards,
Al