Carrera 3.2brakes

[embacpa]

too much brake fade. anyone have constructive advice on cooling stock brakes vs. 930 upgrade? current mods include ssi, m&k 2in2out, lsd, ER suspension upgrade. continued DE seat time, great feedback from instructors, and progressing with incremental mods. thanks for sharing your relevant experience.

[tyro]

What pads and fluid are you using?

[DRACO A5OG]

Pagid Orange, Remove Splash Guards, Install Air Diverters ( I think they are 993 or 996 part ) ATE Rcing Blue Brake Fluid

[wildcat077]

Stock brakes can be an issue if pushed hard ... Friend of mine has an 88 with stock brakes,sticky tires and PFC race pads and his rotors were blue after our DE this past weekend !
I think the glue from the rear pads transfered onto his rear discs ...
Like Draco says,air diverters will help a lot,although there's nothing much one can do for the rear !
Lots of good reading on this forum !

Cheers!
Phil

[not sharp]

subscribed!!

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by embacpa

too much brake fade. anyone have constructive advice on cooling stock brakes vs. 930 upgrade? current mods include ssi, m&k 2in2out, lsd, ER suspension upgrade. continued DE seat time, great feedback from instructors, and progressing with incremental mods. thanks for sharing your relevant experience.

A arm scoops & large diameter hose help

lighten the car as much as possible

I'd use a modern pad, PFC97 seems to be very popular as does Pagid yellow

use the best freshest fluid you can afford, SRF, Motul, Prospeed, Endless are all excellent


the ultimate fix of course is 930 brakes

[aston@ultrasw.c]

I run my 86 on a wide variety of tracks with zero brake fade or boiling fluid, here's the run down:

stock rotors
PFC-97 pads
motul 600
brake ducts in front
rotor block off plates
car lightened to 2,450
caliper piston seal replaced every time rotors are changed
no caliper dust seal
master cylinder catch tank
braided brake lines
bleed brakes before every event
hose off brake/rotor dust after every event

I think that's everything!

Front pads and rotors last about 700 track miles, rear about twice that.

[jpachard]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

A arm scoops & large diameter hose help

lighten the car as much as possible

I'd use a modern pad, PFC97 seems to be very popular as does Pagid yellow

use the best freshest fluid you can afford, SRF, Motul, Prospeed, Endless are all excellent


the ultimate fix of course is 930 brakes

Bill hit it first, lighten the car!! Pagid Oranges are an older compound. Yellow's or PFC97 are a good alternative.

Make sure you brake HARD initially, then come off the pedal as you approach turn in. Brakes work the most efficiently while the wheels are spinning faster.

[KTL]

Agree with everybody else. Get as much cooling as you practically can. Don't underestimate the benefit this provides, especially considering the Fuchs wheels don't do much to help with cooling from the outside.

Ditch the Pagid Orange. A lot of people have problems with these and you end up replacing rotors much too frequently due to warping, which is actually a result of uneven pad deposition due to overheating. Our local group has run with PF97 for around 5 yrs and never a complaint from them. They're an endurance pad, so they're not extremely aggressive. Which means they last long, resist fade very well and are rotor friendly.

[ZOA NOM]

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

Pagid Orange, Remove Splash Guards, Install Air Diverters ( I think they are 993 or 996 part ) ATE Rcing Blue Brake Fluid

+1

My exact setup, no fade, ever, on stock rotors, calipers. I used to use the duck feet scoops, but tried the 993 diverters, and they work great. 2480 lbs SPEC911 car.

[jpachard]

You guys are lucky regarding weight. When I was running my 87 911 in PCA, I had to ballast the car up to 2756lbs without driver.

[racer]

Is your brake fade an occurance at ALL tracks you visit or just one track?

What run group are you in?

My guess is that learning to better manage your equipment (brake less?) would be a better skill to learn than one of jumping on more upgrades thinking that will solve the "problem".

My unfounded assumption is that you are overbraking. Perhaps the next skill (comfort) to develop is taking corners better. The faster you can take the corner, the less braking you need to do upon corner entry.

For a comparison, I thought my 914 didn't have enough brake. I was in the white group(signed off, solo group at the time) thought "I" wasn't the limiting factor and figured, well, lets change over to 911 stuff. Sure I didn't have any brake issues after that. Time went by, sold the car, then had some even faster ones, then bought another 914 with stock brakes. I was worried they wouldn't be strong enough (they are non vented afterall) and I was as quick as I used to be and had NO brake issues anymore... why? because I learned to brake better.. carry more corner speed, became a more skilled drover.

As asked,,, what kind of

pads
fluid
tires are you currently using?

[DRACO A5OG]

Try a Bleed with fresh fluid right before the event, it may do wonders for you.

[175K911]

My thoughts after 20 years of running stock Carrera brakes before finally moving to big brakes:

Need lots of cool air! Duct air from the nose of the car to the eye of the rotor. I used the 993 deflectors on the control arm but by themselves that's not enough volume of air.

Ditch the Orange and got to Yellow. Or the PFC97 as has been suggested.

ATE Super Blue is NOT a racing brake fluid. It's the original equipment fill in street Mercedes Benz sedans. I could cook that stuff in 20 minutes. You need a far better brake fluid with a higher dry boiling point. If you're on a budget, try the Motul 600. Great bang for the buck. If you want the best regardless of cost- it's either Castrol SRF or the new Prospeed 683. But remember that a true racing fluid needs to be blead frequently.

As others have suggested, driving style and experience level makes a big difference. Back when I was an intermediate student 25 yrs ago I could boil my fluid pretty easily. As I got better, more experienced and began instructing 20 yrs ago my brake problems diminished. These days I see my intermediate students with all sorts of brake problems because they tend to brake earlier and are thus holding heat into the rotor and fluid longer. Experienced drivers will go in deep, truly threshhold brake, then get off the brakes, so there's more cooling time between turns.

The first three are easy to change, the last one of course just takes time.

[embacpa]

Originally Posted by not sharp

subscribed!!

new here. what does "subscribed" mean. thx

[embacpa]

thanks for all the replies. car is now in shop to install brake cooling fans on all 4 corners. will also take advice on learning to carry more speed in corners to reduce braking. heck, that's where all the fun is. i am using super blue racing brake fluid. anyone passionate about something that is really better? what is the boiling point compare?

again, thanks for all the feedback.

[hcoles]

I ducted from front of car with some home made scoups to eyes of rotors. My braking skill likely has significant room for improvement, I tend to over brake.

[billjam]

Originally Posted by embacpa

new here. what does "subscribed" mean. thx

Click on Thread Tools / Subscribe to suscribe this thread.
Once "subscribed" you will get an email notification when new posts are added.
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[racer]

Originally Posted by embacpa

what is the boiling point compare?

imho, it is the wet boiling points you'll not want to overlook. As soon as you open a bottle of brake fluid and expose it to moist air, it slowly begins to loose its effectiveness. Why "dry" boiling temps are often touted, for a car that sits a lot and may not be subjected to fequent fluid changes, look at the WET number too.

Castrol SRF: Dry 590/Wet 518)

Motul 600: dry boiling point of 593F and a wet boiling point of 420F

ATE Super Blue (Gold) : Super Blue (DOT 4) has a dry boiling point of 536F and a wet boiling point of 396F.

(this info was taken from here:Castrol SRF, ATE Superblue / TYPE 200, Brembo LCF 600 and Wilwood 570 Brake Fluid - RACEShopper.com )

[arrivederci]

Originally Posted by billjam

Click on Thread Tools / Subscribe to suscribe this thread.
Once "subscribed" you will get an email notification when new posts are added.
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"Subscribed" is also the lazy man's way of doing exactly that.

Agree with what others have said. Stock brakes can be made to work, but the other things have to be right (ie, pads, fluid, cooling) and you have to brake later / less, scrubbing off speed in the corner.

Even with that, your brakes will see temps that will cook the dust boots...which is probably ok on a race car because you're only driving on the track and inspecting everything often, but some would say isn't the best idea on a street car.