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-   -   1st drop & top end observations & questions (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/772047-1st-drop-top-end-observations-questions.html)

JJ 911SC 11-20-2013 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r-mm (Post 7765489)
... With some massaging, the D/S hard line now connects nicely to the T junction.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1384923592.jpg

New seals, lubed w fresh oil and the oil cooler went on...

Great.

Now for you oil cooler, keep an eye (or two) on it to see if the seal will leak.

Mine did right away (PFM green). I end up going through different sets of ring before I find one that did not seeped. The Red/Brown from Elring (installed) & my original Red did not seep.

Check http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/609149-oil-cooler-seals-leekage-engine-wall.html for more details

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306861983.jpg[/

r-mm 11-20-2013 06:24 AM

So... you're saying I have the good oil cooler seals?
Part of the reason I sprung for the WW gasket kit was to (hopefully) recuese myself from over thinking the options out there and just get "the good stuff".

One more question I meant to ask - Why did my rockers tighten up on the shafts? I understand that the radial splits in the shafts (where the RSR seals would go if I used them) are intended to allow the ends of the shafts to expand while the center stays true. Is it the case that with higher than factory torque used, the center does slightly expand? My instinct (although I'm bad at these physics brain teasers) is that the tolerance will open up when the motor is warm, meaning if it doesn't seize when its cold, it won't when its warm. But I'd like someone to verify that.

JJ 911SC 11-20-2013 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r-mm (Post 7765932)
So... you're saying I have the good oil cooler seals?
Part of the reason I sprung for the WW gasket kit was to (hopefully) recuese myself from over thinking the options out there and just get "the good stuff"...

Look like it. My old red and new Red/Brown did not leak on the wall nor under normal operation. But do keep an eye on it.

Smoove1010 11-20-2013 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r-mm (Post 7765489)

I'm surprised none of the books give tips on torquing the rockers. Even if we use the lower factory numbers, which I didn't, its really not every torque wrench and 5mm socket thats gonna fit in there. Although it pains me to undo work, I took #2,3,5,6 out, torqued #1,4 with the long extension, then replaced the rest. When going back to adjust valves I noticed that several (3 if I recall) rockers were sticking on the shafts. I backed out the bolts in tiny increments until they rocked freely.

Is it crazy not to replace motor and trans mounts? I somehow never even thought about it. Probably still have time to order them if its a must do.

I'd love to see an answer from a more experienced Pelican on the sticking rocker shafts. How high did you torque them when they got sticky? How high do you think they were torqued before they became un-sticky? I didn't experience any of this in my project, and if I recall, I gave it the extra 4-5 lbs. recommended on the forum for used shafts in a used cam housing.

Re: the motor mounts - given your deadline, unless they were broken or clearly about to break, I'd suggest putting the old ones back. They are easy to replace with the engine in anyway. The trans mounts on the G50's are built in to the cross-member, so the whole thing gets replaced, and it's not cheap. If someone came up with a retro-fit for this, I haven't been able to find it.

Looking good - keep that momentum going!

GK

Lapkritis 11-20-2013 08:19 AM

How did you center the shaft in the cam housing? If you center incorrectly then the rocker/shaft will drag.

r-mm 11-20-2013 08:53 AM

I installed the rocker shafts such that just a tiny lip was protruding from the short side of the casting. The rocker shafts were not aggressively cleaned, so there was a belt line of discoloration where they had previously been proud of the casting, and I used these as a reference datum.

The rockers were all torqued to 200 in-lbs (~16.5 ft-lbs). They were installed semi-dry, by this I mean there was a smear of assembly lube on the leading edge of each shaft to help guide them in. Those that got sticky needed to be backed out about... I'd say 30-90 degrees before they felt better.

Dumb question - a long extension doesn't change the accuracy of a torque wrench appreciably does it? The loads are axial to the fastener (no offsets).

GaryR 11-20-2013 09:52 AM

When I did mine if they were not in the "right" position they would stick, once moved in/out a bit I could tighten/torque til the cows come home and they rotated freely..

Lapkritis 11-20-2013 10:34 AM

If the tiny lip is too big you may need to move towards the large housing slightly. Here's a pic of mine... only one I could find showing alignment:

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps904e373d.jpg

Oiled through the holes on each a few times before setting valve adjustment.

r-mm 11-20-2013 12:10 PM

The lip on mine was larger than that. I'll take pictures tonight to show what I'm talking about with the discoloration that I used to index their location. Surely everyone's rockers have bands like this from being exposed to air instead of being locked in place.

These SOB rockers just won't get done. I guess I gotta take another look at them tonight.

E Sully 11-20-2013 01:48 PM

You are going to want to seal this part of the casting with JB-Weld. There is a tech article about this.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1384987045.jpg

JJ 911SC 11-20-2013 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r-mm (Post 7766275)
… Dumb question - a long extension doesn't change the accuracy of a torque wrench appreciably does it? The loads are axial to the fastener (no offsets).

No such thing as a dumb… Not asking and guessing is dumb :D

As long as you keep it the 90 degrees spot on, it does not affect the accuracy.

JJ 911SC 11-20-2013 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E Sully (Post 7766733)
You are going to want to seal this part of the casting with JB-Weld. There is a tech article about this...

Ed,

I definitely did not use JB weld there but I don't remember seeing it… I'll have to check my pics :eek:

What is it and is the Tech Article in the PP folder?

E Sully 11-20-2013 02:54 PM

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1384991657.jpg

JJ 911SC 11-20-2013 03:20 PM

Might be for a different engine?

A close up of r-mm pics does not shows the same "Form".

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1384993220.jpg

KTL 11-20-2013 04:06 PM

Quote:

Might be for a different engine? <br>
<br>
A close up of <font color="Blue"><b>r-mm</b></font> pics does not shows the same "Form".<br>
<br>
<img src="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads22/11384993220.jpg" border="0" alt="">
Nope. ESully is spot on about epoxying that spot. All of the air cooled 6 cyl engines have a cast-in pipe in the case half. This pipe comes from the pressure side of the oil pump & supplies oil up to the bottom of the t-stat bore

Very good catch by ESully. That thin casting flaw often fools people into falsely believing they have a leaky
oil cooler or leaky oil cooler seal

r-mm 11-20-2013 07:27 PM

Guys here are some pictures of my rockers. Are they too far proud of the casting? Can someone give me a visual means of alignment? Should the bevel of the shaft itself be visible? Or just the entire nut? Or should nearly everything be flush?

ifhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1385007606.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1385007618.jpg


Realizing that I can still get at the rockers (except for the oil cooler, which is easy to r/r) I went ahead and started adding the ancillaries as a sort of test fit. When I was done I started to wonder if its practical to pick the motor from the stand with intake and FI attached? Is this done? I picked it up onto the stand with my engine crane, attached to the eyelet and front x-member. Seems like it could be tricky to do that with the FI installed? I don't have any ceiling beams to hoist with.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1385007822.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1385007857.jpg

Back to the cam oil lines - doesn't it look like theres a bit of a pinch to the left of the left crimp? Strange because this is the one that fit perfectly with no strong-arming.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1385008047.jpg

JJ 911SC 11-21-2013 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r-mm (Post 7767400)
... Seems like it could be tricky to do that with the FI installed? I don't have any ceiling beams to hoist with.

A caddy on a 660 lbs lifting table or ATV jack would be way to go. Dit it with both but the table the best.

Back to the cam oil lines - doesn't it look like theres a bit of a pinch to the left of the left crimp? Strange because this is the one that fit perfectly with no strong-arming.

Hard to see, how does it feel when you run your fingers on it?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1385030974.jpg

Smoove1010 11-21-2013 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r-mm (Post 7766583)
The lip on mine was larger than that. I'll take pictures tonight to show what I'm talking about with the discoloration that I used to index their location. Surely everyone's rockers have bands like this from being exposed to air instead of being locked in place.

These SOB rockers just won't get done. I guess I gotta take another look at them tonight.

Mine looked like the pic that Lapkritis posted - just the top of the "nut" stood a little proud of the flange. I think you want the entirety of the shaft itself to be buried in that bore.

Minor set-back - you'll be hitting the key in no time...

r-mm 11-21-2013 06:01 AM

Sounds like its rockers out again. This time I'm going to measure them precisely and then measure the bores and take the guesswork out of this. The feeler gauge + 1.6mm (or whatever it is) is not a very easy way to do this given the geometry at play. Honestly, this seems like a weird and over complex way to handle something as simple as rockers. Wish Porsche had gone to the 993 style earlier. I'm looking over at my Alfa twin cam head and and thinking "that's nice and easy". Sure, adjusting shim under bucket valves is annoying if you need a larger shim, but geez these rockers seem trouble prone / easy to get wrong. Complex isn't bad... but something that gives you enough rope to hang yourself and no clues how to get it right is tricky.

JJ -not sure I understand your suggestion? Since I already have an ATV jack and crane, I'll be using those for the re-install. Just not certain how easy it is to lift the motor + intake + FI off the engine stand and onto the ATV jack, on account of routing the webbing around the intake etc.

JJ 911SC 11-21-2013 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r-mm (Post 7767801)
...

JJ -not sure I understand your suggestion? Since I already have an ATV jack and crane, I'll be using those for the re-install. Just not certain how easy it is to lift the motor + intake + FI off the engine stand and onto the ATV jack, on account of routing the webbing around the intake etc.

Before I had the table, I use the ATV jack. I was able to go from the ATV jack to the wall by myself (would not try that again) but to take it from the wall back to the ATV Jack, 3 neighbors give me a hand in exchange of a few beers.

Also, a local Pelican had his on a engine stand like yours and four of us pick it up and drop it on the ATV jack.

You could also drop it on the ATV jack before you put everything back, get it stabilized (dense Styrofoam blocks under the heat exchanger) and complete the assembly on the jack.


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