A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

At 2000 rpm your pulling a vacuum! on the low side and 126 on the high side?

I would normally say the expansion valve is defective (almost closed) it is not passing refrigerant effectively and not enough refrigerant remaining on the high side for the compressor to pump up normally. You may get some uber cold vent temps with HC12a with those pressure readings. HC12a gets very cold when undercharged..which is what the pressures act like too.

A/C compressor won't last long though pulling a vacuum on the low side all the time. No oil flowing in the refrigerant and hard work on the compressor internals.

Howdy DB

FYI, I hold a valid US Government EPA Federal "UNIVERSAL LICENSE", for ANY refrigerant or type of system Certification THAT encompass everything and is also recognized worldwide by all United Nations Signatories; NOT a lowly limited State technicians License

The compressor used in THE BLACK SWAN is working absolutely perfectly as intended for optimal a/c cooling with the least amount of refrigerant with these pressures I posted using R134A as well as all of the components in the system! The evaporator is not freezing as well as the evap blower set on low speed and putting out vent temps in the mid-30s F, the PFC’s heat exchange for both is perfect, The thermal expansion valve has been modified and the superheat has been set perfectly. The system is working optimally for peak efficacy in perfect balance @ these pressures


• What are HC-12aŽ and OZ-12Ž?
HC-12aŽ and OZ-12Ž brand hydrocarbon refrigerant blends are flammable refrigerants. Their primary components are hydrocarbons, which are flammable substances such as propane and butane. HC-12aŽ and OZ-12Ž are registered trademarks of OZ Technology, Inc. HC-12aŽ has been marketed since 1994. OZ-12Ž was a similar blend marketed until the introduction of HC-12aŽ . Both products have been reviewed by EPA under the Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP) program. More information about the SNAP program is available from the hotline listed at the top of this page.
Note that EPA refers to the chemical composition of HC-12aŽ as Hydrocarbon Blend B. EPA considers any substance with that chemical composition, no matter what its trade name is, to be Hydrocarbon Blend B and to have the same legal status that HC-12aŽ has.
In order to meet Department of Transportation requirements for shipping HC-12aŽ in six-ounce cans (DOT refers to these cans as DOT 2Q containers), OZ Technology reduced the vapor pressure of HC-12aŽ in June, 1998 by changing the composition. EPA does not consider this reformulated HC-12aŽ to be the same as Hydrocarbon Blend B. The reformulated HC-12aŽ has not been submitted for SNAP review, and thus cannot be marketed or used as a substitute for ozone-depleting substances.
• What is DURACOOL 12aŽ? Is there a difference between HC-12aŽ and DURACOOL 12aŽ?
DURACOOL 12aŽ has the same chemical composition as the HC-12aŽ formulation that was submitted for SNAP review and was called Hydrocarbon Blend B. Both HC-12aŽ and DURACOOL 12aŽ are different than the new formulation of HC-12aŽ in six-ounce cans. DURACOOL 12aŽ is the registered trademark of Duracool Limited, the Canadian company that has manufactured DURACOOL 12aŽ since 1997. Duracool Limited and OZ Technology, the manufacturer of HC-12aŽ, are separate, unrelated companies with their own manufacturing facilities and distribution mechanisms.
• What is the legal status of hydrocarbon refrigerants such as HC-12aŽ and DURACOOLŽ?
It has been illegal since July 13, 1995 to replace CFC-12 with the HC-12aŽ formulation that was submitted for SNAP review in any refrigeration or A/C application other than industrial process refrigeration. The same prohibition for OZ-12Ž took effect on April 18, 1994. Because DURACOOL 12aŽ has the same chemical composition as the HC-12aŽ formulation that was submitted for SNAP review (i.e., Hydrocarbon Blend B), DURACOOL 12aŽ is also subject to the same restrictions.
HC-12aŽ, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, is not the same as Hydrocarbon Blend B and has not been submitted for SNAP review. OZ Technology is therefore prohibited from marketing this blend as a substitute for any ozone-depleting substance. In addition, any use of this blend as a substitute for CFC-12 or any other ozone-depleting chemical, in industrial process refrigeration or any other refrigeration or A/C end use, is prohibited under the Clean Air Act.
Since HC-12aŽ, as submitted for SNAP review, is chemically different from HC-12aŽ, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, and since it has a different legal status under the Clean Air Act, users of any substance marketed as HC-12aŽ should be aware of which HC-12aŽ they have purchased.
Note: Many states prohibit using flammable refrigerants in motor vehicles, regardless of which original refrigerant was used in the vehicle.
• May hydrocarbon refrigerants be used to replace CFC-12, commonly referred to as "FreonŽ ," in cars?
No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12aŽ and DURACOOL 12aŽ as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances.

Not a good IDEA, this refrigerant is flammable and can explode causing great injury or all kinds of damage, and why it is illegal to use in an automobile or truck

Your thinking "A/C compressor won't last long though pulling a vacuum on the low side all the time. No oil flowing in the refrigerant and hard work on the compressor internals." IS SIMPLY WRONG! There will be no damage to the compressor as long as it has the right amount OIL in it and correct for the gas used,

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Tippy your making it too easy for them

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

This is the underside of THE TAN SWAN which also has this invention

Do you always lift the car in such a way as to pinch closed the A/C lines that you just installed?

No wonder he's only using .95 pounds, 3/4 of the system is sealed off with that lifting arm!

I'm still trying to figure out how you "invented" the reversed gas flow 2 years ago, yet my car and every car with the underbelly condenser has the reversed gas flow already, dating back 10 years or more.

[KelogGes]

This is a serious thread

If you can't act like an adult Leave!!!

[KelogGes]

look closer the hoses are not crushed

[Bob Kontak]

You don't quite get it.

You are the a-hole here, Slick.

[Bob Kontak]

Please close this thread.

Somebody?

[KelogGes]

belly-pan condenses have an extremely poor heat exchange for several reasons this is why they are no longer produced

They have nothing to do with this tread

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Not a good IDEA, this refrigerant is flammable and can explode causing great injury or all kinds of damage

But never both.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha

It's funny, the more boisterous the enema bag (that's you, KelogGES) the more they are unable to communicate using the standard format and rules English speaking people have adopted.

[tirwin]

Faux intellectualism. Gotta love it...

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

look closer the hoses are not crushed

So you're lifting the car via the sway bar? Even better!


It doesn't matter whether underbelly condensers work well or not (they do), it matters that you claim to have invented a new way to flow the gas in a Porsche A/C system, when facts show that you did NOT invent it.

That's all, nothing more.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

But never both.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha

It's funny, the more boisterous the enema bag (that's you, KelogGES) the more they are unable to communicate using the standard format and rules English speaking people have adopted.

I assume that he removes all of the gasoline from his cars before driving as well, since it's flammable and can explode causing great injury

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

I assume that he removes all of the gasoline from his cars before driving as well, since it's flammable and can explode causing great injury

R-134 is flammable. More so than R-12 (from a google search). Over 1,000 degrees F but still not to be played with.

Joke was that you are either injured OR property damage occurs - but not both injury and damage.

I have to articulate that or I will be blamed as a fire starter first and then KG will "ig" me even more.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by stormcrow

You talk about reverse the gases but you have yet to explain just how it's done. Now I am not a rocket scientist but I do know a little bit about A/C and how it works regardless of it being in a car or in a house.

So I have to ask - just where are you reversing the gasses - or is that a trick question but instead should be "where are you reversing the flow of the gases".

He means reversing the order of the flow through the 2 condensers. Factory
has the rear lid condenser first in the flow, KeloGes has the front lip condenser first. Same amount of condensing effectiveness either way, just now less work being done by the rear lid condenser, cooler running engine.

Much like reversing the order of flow with the 2 condensers in my frost-free frig, the drip pan water would accumulate , not evaporate away as readily as otherwise.


The only time I have ever experienced "reverse flow gases" is on a heat pump and none of the cars that I am aware of have a heat pump design.

Secondly you show a picture of the high and low pressure side of the refrigerant lines. Well I have to ask - you comment that the low pressure is around 3 or 4 psi yet the temperature of the air flow is around 35 - 37 average temp.

Even worse, that's MINUS 3-4 PSI...!!

If you are using 134-A refrigerant the temperature at 3 - 4 pis would be around -5 to -8 degrees F.
In addition to that you also include in your comments that you only use around .95 lbs of refrigerant.

KeloGes subscribes, apparently, to the Griffiths school of thought regarding the (CCOT) method of charging our TXV systems. Charging just to the point of minimum vent temperature. TXV out of flow modulation range, evaporator freeze up unless the thermostatic switch is properly "calibrated".

Even so, 0.95 seems low.

I have to say you surely have me baffeled because if you measure the diameter and length of the lines to get the correct volume, and calculate the volume of using two condensing units there is no way you are only using .95 lbs of refrigerant.

If what you say is true about the amount of refrigerant, then the lines would have to be around 1/8" diameter along with the condensing units.

I think you want everyone to believe that you have this great invention that you won't tell anyone about and want us to believe you know what you are talking about -

But I really don't want to say it I don't think you know what you are talking about. For if you did you would have explained it already.

And as far as your concern for others taking away your secrets, I don't think you have any to be taken away.

I have been working in the HVAC industry since 1965 working on chillers air handling units, ammonia systems and anything else related to the HVAC industry.

I know you can make water boil at 33F under the right circumstances but when it comes to claiming that you can keep an evaporator coil from freezing based on your pressures of 3 or 4 PSI that reaks of not knowing what you are talking about.

Hmmm... Maybe his PFC "invention" has that much restriction to flow..?

You can claim to get the condensing coil temperatures down with your PFC but that's about as far as you can go with your claim.

Unless you can provide a descriptive flow chart showing just what you are talking about when you speak of reverse gas flow - you will continually be discredited because no one believes you know what you are talking about.

Now don't take this as a criticism but take it as a response from all your posts from someone who has been working in the HVAC industry for quite some time.

And should you do want to discredit me by saying I do not know what I am talking about, you are going to have to prove me wrong by you coming clean with proof - not just by saying I put it out there you figure it out. Any dummy can do that.

KeloGes isn't just any dummy, he tops the list.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by wwest

KeloGes isn't just any dummy, he tops the list.

BAM

[KelogGes]

I AM NO FOOL!!!

its going to be fun proving ALL the NA Sayers wrong shortly that have dogged me for over 4 years

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

I AM NO FOOL!!!

You are far more a fool than a dummy.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

So you're lifting the car via the sway bar? Even better!


It doesn't matter whether underbelly condensers work well or not (they do), it matters that you claim to have invented a new way to flow the gas in a Porsche A/C system, when facts show that you did NOT invent it.

That's all, nothing more.

Actually, KeloGes did "invent" it. No one, otherwise, would think up such an idiotic
arrangement and then insist that's it's actually an improvement over the factory system.

The true test of an A/C system is how fast it can bring down an overheated cabin atmosphere to a sensible human comfort level, not how cold the outflow might be with minimum airflow once the cabin is comfortable.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by wwest

The true test of an A/C system is how fast it can bring down an overheated cabin atmosphere to a sensible human comfort level

You are talking the widely accepted Ronnie comfort plus 22F rule, correct?

(Or was that plus 40F?)

[Ronnie's.930]

^^^^

Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt! My a/c comfort zone would have Will reaching for the nearest space blanket (like Saul's brother in "Better Call Saul" - though he isn't doing it for warmth).