A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's

[tirwin]

Dave,

Here is the problem I see with Reid's approach. Technical viability aside, it is a business model/support problem.

Ok, let's say your the average novice DIYer that knows little about A/C technology. You have about 3 choices:

1) You can buy from a company like Griffiths where you get a complete package, instructions and post-sales tech support help.
2) You can buy from some other companies that will sell you a packaged solution but really recommend that you have it installed by a pro. Let's say you get "variable" support.
3) You can buy all the components yourself and completely roll your own solution.

For people who have little experience and just want to solve the problem, options 1 & 2 are understandably more appealing, right?

Now with option 1 & 2 I can't imagine the support call if you vary from their provided instructions and try Reid's idea. If you were in their shoes would YOU put any guarantees behind something where the user "went off course" to try an idea? I think most reasonable people would say no.

So, we're left with a target market for Reid's idea of people that fall in option 3 -- the complete DIYer that has complete faith and confidence in their knowledge and abilities AND the time and cash to burn if the idea doesn't pan out. And where would you go for assistance? Reid?

Most people that I think fall into option 3 seem to be panning Reid's idea. Why do you suppose that is? Most people do a risk/benefit analysis when making a decision. It seems the jury is saying they fail to see a SUPERIOR benefit as Reid claims. What people seem to believe is that it is a push. The burden of proof is on Reid because it's his claim. If he was a bit more humble I don't think he would get the pushback he gets, but that is a different discussion.

Now I'm all for trying ideas. I've tried some things myself in the spirit of innovation. Sometimes ideas pan out and sometimes they don't. I have no problem with that.

My problem with this thread (not "treads" -- those are the things you step on) is that TYPING SOMETHING IN ALL CAPS DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. Look at all the great threads here where people have painstakingly described an idea, shown step by step how they did it and documented their success and failure.

Does Reid do this? No, he comes on here and plays mental games with people giving us "hints" and telling us he isn't going to spoon feed us dullards.

I've seen this personality type before. He needs someone to validate how smart he thinks he is. That is his reason for coming on here and saying the same thing over and over again and playing games. I don't have the time or patience for that. You may. Bless you if you do.

Reid, my opinion is either be a part of the community and quit playing games or GTFO. I am not wasting any more time on this.

Dave, you got one thing right -- he has an approach like 80 grit toilet paper.

[zippy_gg]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Front New Design PFC high speed blower 5 times more CFM than the original OEM underpowered blower
This puppy really moves some air

Reid, can you tell us more about this blower? Thanks!

[DaveMcKenz]

Tirwin, I know what you mean. I think his presentation is not well targeted. Does he want people to buy a product? I don't really think so. I think he wants to show off his successes, much like anyone here who posts about their suspension project or engine rebuild. Not sure why he comes off so negative but that's just him, I think.
So far his ideas include: Parallel flow condensers, improved airflow to front and rear condensers, reversed condenser order, orifice tube evaporator system, improved evaporator and blower, electronic a/c control. These are all at least interesting ideas, and some are well accepted by most a/c guys.
He is obviously proud of his results, and wants to share, but also some credit for his efforts.
I don't really pay much attention to the BS, so without that, this is a two page thread with some decent info.
Thanks,
Dave

[crownarch]

zippy_gg It's a Spal single blower model 004-A41-28S. You can look up the specs on-line and it sells for about $175 bucks.

[zippy_gg]

Originally Posted by crownarch

zippy_gg It's a Spal single blower model 004-A41-28S. You can look up the specs on-line and it sells for about $175 bucks.

Thanks Crown!

[wwest]

Proper inlet, centrifugal flow, direction, perfect for cabin heat blower upgrade, if it can be fitted.

But a front PFC with only this blower for cooling, absolutely no forward speed air cooling? What must have those German's been thinking, relying mostly on forward roadspeed for condenser cooling...??

How well does that Spal blower work with the trunk lid closed and sealed?

[wwest]

With all the time and money Reid has available it's a real shame he hasn't found an intellectual advisor to keep him from going down blind alleys....

[DaveMcKenz]

Originally Posted by wwest

Proper inlet, centrifugal flow, direction, perfect for cabin heat blower upgrade, if it can be fitted.

But a front PFC with only this blower for cooling, absolutely no forward speed air cooling? What must have those German's been thinking, relying mostly on forward roadspeed for condenser cooling...??

How well does that Spal blower work with the trunk lid closed and sealed?

The stock blower has an air inlet that should provide intake air for this blower. The front compartment is not sealed if this is used. The stock duct could be enlarged or modified to attach to the blower intake.
Dave

[KelogGes]

Before the Tan Swan front PFC blower that I showed here I actually used, I worked on making a different front PFC blower set of fans I designed for the Tan Swan I decided not to use that blow a very high CFM or air flow

But after fully installing the front PFC with these fans grouped together on the 911

Although they worked extremely well and put out enough CFM to help easily make vent temps in the 30s @ 95 F degrees INSTALLED and the Tan Swan Driving tests all went fine


I did not like the ground clearance this very thin and high speed fans added

I decided to scrap them and design a better solution

[Tippy]

How much amperage you drawing total with those fans?

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by DaveMcKenz

The stock blower has an air inlet that should provide intake air for this blower. The front compartment is not sealed if this is used. The stock duct could be enlarged or modified to attach to the blower intake.
Dave

NOT LARGE ENOUGH OR EVEN CLOSE for the CFM this large blower sucks and blows

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by Tippy

How much amperage you drawing total with those fans?

Tippy I can't remember exactly but not enough to matter, a guess mayby 5-10 amps?

I still have these as I did not use them for the Tan Swan

The large Blower kicksass but is difficult to install and requires some body modification
PLUS A Shroud

[crownarch]

So can we assume that your ductwork shown on post 295 goes through trunk floor and then your blower attaches directly to the ductwork. If this is true then why the small diameter holes in the ductworks where blower attaches? Are you forcing air through those tiny holes? Not questioning your intelligence but, only trying to determine your logic.

[DaveMcKenz]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

NOT LARGE ENOUGH OR EVEN CLOSE for the CFM this large blower sucks and blows

I believe it. The stock front condenser blower is very small.
Dave

[DaveMcKenz]

OK Reid, I am starting to see your process. You dealt with condenser cooling capacity by sending hot gas to the front condenser first. You juiced up that heat exchanger by using PFC and a massive blower. That is a crucial idea. That is what Porsche did on the 964. It worked so well that they eliminated the rear lid condenser completely. I now understand why adding Spal fans to the rear lid seen unnecessary to you. If your front condenser is that good, who needs more rear condenser power.
Many of us who have preserved the stock layout have tried to juice it up with other choices. Wwest and I have increased the air flow over the rear condenser. Griff has added a rear fender condenser/fan. These are all ways of upgrading condenser capacity. Yours is a good way, but it is not the only good way.
If I was dealing with a clean sheet design, I would probably got the 964/993 route. Your solution is really a variant of that. There is no need for only one design to be OK.
Dave

[DaveMcKenz]

One more thing. Let's not forget these were R12 designed stock systems. Our design responses are largely directed to the difference that R134a requires. Different responses, but not all bad.
Dave

[KelogGes]

Something I am working on for someone today

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by DaveMcKenz

OK Reid, I am starting to see your process. You dealt with condenser cooling capacity by sending hot gas to the front condenser first. You juiced up that heat exchanger by using PFC and a massive blower. That is a crucial idea. That is what Porsche did on the 964. It worked so well that they eliminated the rear lid condenser completely. I now understand why adding Spal fans to the rear lid seen unnecessary to you. If your front condenser is that good, who needs more rear condenser power.
Many of us who have preserved the stock layout have tried to juice it up with other choices. Wwest and I have increased the air flow over the rear condenser. Griff has added a rear fender condenser/fan. These are all ways of upgrading condenser capacity. Yours is a good way, but it is not the only good way.
If I was dealing with a clean sheet design, I would probably got the 964/993 route. Your solution is really a variant of that. There is no need for only one design to be OK.
Dave

This thread name was carefully chosen for what I am trying to convey and give to early model 911 owners

FOCUS ! = “A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's”

It’s not what I make!

It is not blowers or fans !

ITS NOT WHAT Griffiths makes or does!





THINK FIRST

“A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's”
You really need to figure THIS OUT AND TRY IT, I think it will put a big smile on your face!
YOUR GASES ARE WRONG FOR THE BEST WAY TO MAKE COLD!


Dave forget the fan mentality for a moment, Although a better fan on the front condenser helps ; an additional rear fan is Absolutely Not Needed; you already have a great one back there if you use it wisely and let it do its job properly

Your getting close to figuring this out

dont confuse yourself with the 964

[DaveMcKenz]

Thanks Reid. I am just trying to understand why your system works so well. Front condenser first must have some advantage that is not otherwise obvious, besides avoiding engine heating.
Dave

[KelogGes]

Forget my system and my designs

" Reversing the gas's "


THIS discovery

Should make all/every EARLY MODEL 911's A/C systems run much more efficent to make colder A/C;

Plus ALSO get much lower oil temperatures when its hot outside and the A/C is being used at the same time


" Reversing the gas's "
TELLS YOU HOW TO DO IT