A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's

[Ronnie's.930]

Since we're showing braggart pictures that have been posted umpteen times before in other threads . . . 98 ambient, serpentine evaporator and fender condenser, OEM Turbo tail and nose condensers (tube and fin), conventional condenser/refrigerant routing, r134a, heavily insulated evaporator box, GM blower motor set on highest speed setting, no freeze up, results repeated over and over in all imaginable driving conditions (stop & go, highway cruising, parking lot heat soak, etc.) - getcha suuummmmm!

[KelogGes]

roflmao
NO obsolete junk here and no 3 heavy condensers like you have with even more heavy a/c hose
and my posted temp was on a 911 on the lift not moving at idle

Ronnie What does this have to do with reversing the gases and giving the info away for free?

[911pcars]

For A/C aficionados, especially those enamored with R12 refrigerant. Do an internet search and read about the latest A/C improvements and components.

No. I didn't invent that, just did a search and noticed some thoughts on evap and condenser design.

Sherwood

[KelogGes]

George I just saw a pic of your car here, you have a nice looking
87 911 coupe, GP white, cashmere /black

[Coastr]

Why not just post like a normal person? What is it about AC threads that causes odd behaviour?

Quite a strange phenomena, when you think about it.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

roflmao
NO obsolete junk here and no 3 heavy condensers like you have with even more heavy a/c hose
and my posted temp was on a 911 on the lift not moving at idle

Ronnie What does this have to do with reversing the gases and giving the info away for free?

That temp was measured at idle in my garage with a barrel fan running in front of the car and pointing rearward (to keep heat from building up under the engine).

Reid, you disparage all other forms of a/c upgrades (labeling such as, "crap, junk, garbage, obsolete" and so forth), degrade those who sell and install/use them, and claim that you have created vastly superior alternatives that trump all others; my post above both refutes your pompous, condescending boasts (that temp reading at 98 ambient was with suction pressure of 30psi and discharge pressure of 210 psi, by the way) and "gives away" very useful information for free (information that other people are free to use to get nad shrinking a/c performance, and which I do not arrogantly claim to have discovered) .

You might have a good a/c idea or two, but when you come here beating your chest, making false claims of superiority, and unabashedly slamming all other proven a/c modifications, then you deserve to be called to the carpet each and every time.

[911pcars]

KelogGes, I re-read the beginning of this thread and your tone was quite normal (2011). However, in the last few pages, overexhuberance and hyperbole seemed to put off forum inhabitants.

It sounds like your custom-fit, micro channel, parallel-flow condenser should improve A/C efficiency. However, re-routing the refrigerant path requires more hose, rigid or otherwise. Your suggested path; rear comp.>frt cond>rear cond>frt. rec-drier>exp valve>evap>rear comp. = 4 lengths of refrig. line). Perhaps there's one super-efficient, front-mount condenser with fan support can do the job like most other vehicles.

And I would lose the "reverse gas flow" claim and instead use another phrase to describe the revised gas flow path, like, "modified flow path".

Sherwood

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by DaveMcKenz

No extra hose?
It seems the hose will go from compressor to front condenser, then back to rear deck condenser, the forward again to receiver/drier, then evaporator.
That is pretty much one extra trip front and back to pick up rear condenser. I'm not sure that's really a problem, but it does mean extra hose, unless I am missing something. (Which is very possible.)
Dave

Dave is starting to get this this using his brain

use your brain and think about reversing the gases

this is not about necessarily using my PFC''s

the pictures I posted are proof this works far better than the traditional way

figure it out in your brain

Doing this makes an incredible difference for several reasons

[techman1]

Not sure why you are stuck on the "reversing the gasses" statement.
Maybe you need a story to help you grasp our misunderstanding.
Tommy the truck left the station, headed to Walmart. As he was pulling out onto the highway, dispatch radioed and re-routed him to K-Mart first. Dispatch did not say "reverse your course", else Tommy would have stopped, and backed back into the station. He was re-routed, not reversed, which implies the direction of motion has changed. In your theory, the motion is still the same, the route has changed.
Regardless of how great an idea is, if the communication does not happen, the idea is not shared.

[wwest]

Dave is starting to get this this using his brain

use your brain and think about reversing the gases

this is not about necessarily using my PFC''s

the pictures I posted are proof this works far better than the traditional way

figure it out in your brain

Doing this makes an incredible difference for several reasons

KeloGes' statement:

"words of wisdom and experience

Extra Rear Deck Fans are never needed

YOU HAVE A HUGE 911 ENGINE FAN that will pull the balls off a goat

Seal your rear deck lid condenser so it is COMPLETELY sealed to the rear deck lid and let the engine do the work with its fan!

toss the useless fans you added, or give them to wwest to sell to some unsuspecting numskull LoL"

wwest's statement:

"Do the numbers....

Front condenser, 22X6" 132 sq. inch. Average airflow, 110 FPM.

Factory condenser, blower. 60 airflow measurements, 3 measurements each inch across.

Rear condenser, 800 RPM engine idle, 27.5X8.5" 233 sq. inch. Average airflow 150 FPM.

Anomaly: No measureable airflow for the first 10" of front condenser from battery side, peak measurement was 430 FPM at 11"

Conclusion: rear condenser is 240% more effective at heat transfer vs the front lip condenser.

"Boosted" rear condenser airflow using the cabin heat blower = 186 FPM.

Cabin heat blower airflow inlet is open to atmosphere and sleeved for increased "work"."


KeloGes is correct, the engine cooling fan will pull the balls off of a goat.

With the engine RPM at or above 2500 RPM.

FACT: The factory stock rear lid condenser is 240% more effective at cooling the refrigerant vs the front lip condenser.

From the numbers it is quite clear that rerouting the refrigerant flow to the front lip condenser first would yeild no A/C performance gain whatsoever.

So KeloGes's brilliant idea turns out to be nothing more than a SHAM, putup!

It's pretty clear that the least expensive & complex method, most elegant method, for improving the performance of our A/C is to add cooling airflow through the rear lid condenser, be it Spal fans or simply engaging the cabin heat blower. The latter can be done selectively in the '84-88 models, or direct connection to a trinary switch. In worse case switched on with the A/C as with the front lip blower.

Switching fans on with compressor clutch power is not the best of ideas since the high pressure remains for quite some time post compressor shut down.

[KelogGes]

think using logic or get someone to help you this is not rocket scientist stuff
draw out a diagram and figure it out
re-diagram the early model 911 a/c in your mind or on paper reversing the gases and its obvious
look at the pictures and clues I posted
I am not going to spoon feed anyone because your lazy

[KelogGes]

[QUOTE=wwest;8555335]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

DaveMcKenz

KeloGes' statement:

"words of wisdom and experience

Extra Rear Deck Fans are never needed

YOU HAVE A HUGE 911 ENGINE FAN that will pull the balls off a goat

Seal your rear deck lid condenser so it is COMPLETELY sealed to the rear deck lid and let the engine do the work with its fan!

toss the useless fans you added, or give them to wwest to sell to some unsuspecting numskull LoL"

wwest's statement:

"Do the numbers....

Front condenser, 22X6" 132 sq. inch. Average airflow, 110 FPM.

Factory condenser, blower. 60 airflow measurements, 3 measurements each inch across.

Rear condenser, 800 RPM engine idle, 27.5X8.5" 233 sq. inch. Average airflow 150 FPM.

Anomaly: No measureable airflow for the first 10" of front condenser from battery side, peak measurement was 430 FPM at 11"

Conclusion: rear condenser is 240% more effective at heat transfer vs the front lip condenser.

"Boosted" rear condenser airflow using the cabin heat blower = 186 FPM.

Cabin heat blower airflow inlet is open to atmosphere and sleeved for increased "work"."



FACT: The factory stock rear lid condenser is 230% more effective at cooling the refrigerant vs the front lip condenser.

This MIS QUOTED BUNCH OF WORDS FROM BY WWEST FROM SEVERAL OTHER POSTS AND OUT OF CONTEXT has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING whatsoever to do with the topic of this tread

[wwest]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

think using logic or get someone to help you this is not rocket scientist stuff
draw out a diagram and figure it out
re-diagram the early model 911 a/c in your mind or on paper reversing the gases and its obvious
look at the pictures and clues I posted
I am not going to spoon feed anyone because your lazy

Speaking of LAZY, why only clues and NOT ACTUAL FACTS???

The pictures and clues you have provided so far only indicate that rerouting works, not necessarily better and maybe WORSE.

Your reroute results in making, having, the front lip condenser do more work, but is there really a net advantage.

My measurements indicate NOT!

In a control environment how long to bring the evaporator to a specific temperature from ambient with the engine at idle, max A/C blower, doors and wiindows open, in each configuration.

[wwest]

[QUOTE=KelogGes;8555381]

Originally Posted by wwest

This MIS QUOTED BUNCH OF WORDS FROM BY WWEST FROM SEVERAL OTHER POSTS has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING whatsoever to do with the topic of this tread

If you would be so kind as to point out any mis-quoting I have done I will quickly correct same.

[GH85Carrera]

This is like A/C comedy gold. Those two arguing about AC.

It is much like the old Saturday Night Live skit were a bunch of men sat around and discussed "Women's Problems"

Next up a 12 year old boy singing the Frank Sinatra classic "My Way"

Pure comedy.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Dave is starting to get this ... using his brain

Dave is no slouch.

I am subscribed to the tech content. Even the riddle mystery.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Next up a 12 year old boy singing the Frank Sinatra classic "My Way"

Heh heh.

[911pcars]

Maybe the powers to be can split this discussion into separate threads. The original post has sequed into other territories. One thread can go to OT.

[NYNick]

This guy is a fricking idiot.

[Mark at Pelican Parts]

This thread is deteriorating as well. The tone here isn't great is it. Here's a chance to turn it around.

Mark at Pelican Parts