A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's

[DaveMcKenz]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

The expansion valve sensing bulb determines refrigerant flow into the evaporator. If evap. temps go below a certain threshold, the expansion valve restricts refrigerant flow to avoid evaporator freezing. The exp. valve does this independently of the system's ability to operate at whatever level of efficiency.
https://macsworldwide.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/your-car%E2%80%99s-expansion-valves-and-orifice-tubes-keep-your-ac-flowing/

A/C systems can also employ temp. sensors to automatically de-energize the compressor to produce the same effect (reduce/restrict refrigerant flow through the evaporator).

Sherwood

I wish I had the problem of my vent temps being too cold. I think mt expansion valve and thermostatic switch could deal with that.
Dave

[stormcrow]

Sherwood,

I don't disagree with you but here's the issue. The expansion valve opens based on the sensing tube to allow a pressure differential across the valve.

When this happen the higher pressure pushes the liquid through the expansion valve and gas or vapor is emitted from the other side.

Now if the pressure isn't high enough based on the design of the expansion valve then there is a possibility that liquid could be emitted instead of gas. As a result you will have what's called "evaporative flooding resulting in the evaporator temperature to drop below freezing.

The expansion valve will modulate but in doing so it will cause the refrigerant to surge causing an unstable condition.

In other words lets say there is gas going across the evaporator and the sensing bulb senses this. As the temperature drops in the coil the sensing bulb starts to close the expansion vale thus reducing the flow of refrigerant.

However it doesn't happen immediately - so what is going to happen is the refrigerant will keep flowing and the evaporator has the potential to be flooded with refrigerant. The expansion valve is not designed to avoid evaporator freezing.

That is the main reason the temperature sensing switch is designed to a cutoff/cut on range of 40 - 45.

That is why I am asking the question about how KeloGes is controlling this. It's great to get a 30F temp as was shown but that tells me the evaporator is being flooded.

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by DaveMcKenz

Thanks Reid,
My request for data was based on the day that you first tried your reverse flow arrangement. Whatever car you used, with whatever equipment, you may have measured some vent temps before and after you reversed the flow. Maybe you did not record the temps at the time, and I would understand. Sometimes I make a change that is so obviously for the better, that I forget to take before and after measurement.
Dave

I can't remember any more exactly what I did with all the data for THE BLACK SWAN; its been since before Wednesday, ‎April ‎25, ‎2012, when I copied the pictures to my computer from my camera; its been about 3 years now since I finished this car AND PROVED THIS WORK BETTER THEN i COULD HAVE IMAGINED

The Black Swan was ORIGINALLY only a minimal A/C Project, the owner only wanted new PFC's and New hoses. But I decided to try something crazy never done before to the best of my knowledge; that had been in in the back of my mind for a long time; for me turned into costing me money due to the amount of time I spent on it (an extra OVER a week of free labor due to the discovery and changes made that had nothing to do with just making him PFC's

But it had other benefits for knowledge learned, from not just the gases discovery but also the Minimal alteration and modification needed to make an early model 911 get constant 30 degree F vent temps @ 95 degrees Ambient

I have moved on to several other related 911 A/C engineering design things
i.e. THE TAN SWAN with a completely new full set of components Everything Redesigned to new technology finished

Last but not least, latest; DIGITAL MICRO PROCESSOR CONTROL

As I said, THIS REALLY WORKS! I don't need reversing the gases and keeping this 3 year old proven secret, and am giving it to all early model 911 owners as a gift for free from my heart!

TEST IT AND PROVE IT TO YOUR SELF OR DON'T; THIS IS A FREE GIFT THAT IS NOT BS!

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

The expansion valve sensing bulb determines refrigerant flow into the evaporator. If evap. temps go below a certain threshold, the expansion valve restricts refrigerant flow to avoid evaporator freezing. The exp. valve does this independently of the system's ability to operate at whatever level of efficiency.
https://macsworldwide.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/your-car%E2%80%99s-expansion-valves-and-orifice-tubes-keep-your-ac-flowing/

A/C systems can also employ temp. sensors to automatically de-energize the compressor to produce the same effect (reduce/restrict refrigerant flow through the evaporator).

Sherwood

One of these days or the other you guys are going to finally get SMART

And dump your TX valves in the trash and start using "VOV Orifice Valves" together with a small EXPANSION TANK

LOOK up "SMART VOV Orifice Valve" and start reading and learning!

FYI, Police Departments in the hot desert in Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona swear by them


Don't forget to also look up "Orifice Valve EXPANSION TANK"

[wwest]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

One of these days or the other you guys are going to finally get SMART

And dump your TX valves in the trash and start using "VOV Orifice Valves" together with a small EXPANSION TANK

LOOK up "SMART VOV Orifice Valve" and start reading and learning!

FYI, Police Departments in the hot desert in Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona swear by them


Don't forget to also look up "Orifice Valve EXPANSION TANK"

The VOV orifice valve is only advantageous if at idle on a hot day the compressor is not turning fast enough to supply an adequate level of refrigerant to the condensers, and thus to the R/D and beyond that to the TXV.

That is NOT the problem we have.

At idle, 800 RPM, the compressor is more than adequate at pumping refrigerant.

Provided one doesn't follow the wrong guidelines and undercharge the system in order to get sub-freezing evaporator temps.

Our problem is, and always has been, the lack of adequate condensing capability to keep the high side pressure low enough to feed the R/D with LIQUID refrigerant.

[DaveMcKenz]

You guys know, the old school test of condenser adequacy is to spray cold water over the condenser, and see if the vent temps go down. I truly believe that condenser capacity is the limiting factor in our cars and most a/c systems. Increased air flow or increased condenser capacity will address those problems. The fact that r\Reid mentions it in his post suggest that his system is at threshold for condenser capacity. That means that anything that improves it by any means will be beneficial.
Good luck,
Dave

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

One of these days or the other you guys are going to finally get SMART........

Obi-Wan Kanobi. Thanks for your wisdom and unabashed humility.

May the force be in reverse flow.

Sherwood

[DaveMcKenz]

I understand, Sherwood. Reid is abrasive. I have worked with guys who were abrasive, but their ideas justified the effort. He doesn't care about being sensitive. He has told me I have finally started using my brain. You have no idea how much I have used my brain and continue to do so, but I accept his statements as a compliment as far as he can handle them.
I will always give an experimentalist a lot of respect, just as I was given the same in my former life. Unfortunately he was not gifted with the interpersonal skills to match his purported intellect. Let's give him some slack and see what he has to say when nobody is picking on him.
Thanks,
Dave

[KelogGes]

Thank YOU Dave, you are a true gentleman!
I also like the fact in the way you're trying to learn new technology
send me your number by priv message and I will call you if you like and answer any question you have I can answer

I don't think it is worth my time sharing anything anymore with the ones here I don't like that have dogged me for-years for anything and everything I say regardless of the subject

My sincerest apologies to those in the background who don't post in the treads and seeking knowledge that are courteous and respectful, this place is a zoo with tooo many adult children that run ramped in packs IN THE A/C RELATED THREADS, take a look it goes back for years with ruined a/c threads and you will see what I mean

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

I don't think it is worth my time sharing anything anymore with the ones here I don't like that have dogged me for-years for anything and everything I say regardless of the subject . . .


. . . this place is a zoo with tooo many adult children that run ramped in packs IN THE A/C RELATED THREADS, take a look it goes back for years with ruined a/c threads and you will see what I mean

BTW, Reid, the "dogging" you get is well earned and you know it - you loudly claim a/c superiority in theory, design and execution, malign existing a/c products and practices, as well as those who offer and use said products and practices, and have NEVER shown a shred of evidence that supports your chest beating. You have been doing this for years. What exactly do you expect? Do you think you should be praised for lobbing bombs in the name of self-proclaimed superiority while offering as evidence results that are, in fact, inferior (or at best, maybe equal) to what you say is garbage/obsolete/junk/rip-off ideas and products? And if not "praised" do you think your unsubstantiated boasts and mud slinging should simply be allowed to be presented (over and over) without retort?

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by ronnie's.930

btw, reid, the "dogging" you get is well earned and you know it - you loudly claim a/c superiority in theory, design and execution, malign existing a/c products and practices, as well as those who offer and use said products and practices, and have never shown a shred of evidence that supports your chest beating. You have been doing this for years. What exactly do you expect? Do you think you should be praised for lobbing bombs in the name of self-proclaimed superiority while offering as evidence results that are, in fact, inferior (or at best, maybe equal) to what you say is garbage/obsolete/junk/rip-off ideas and products? And if not "praised" do you think your unsubstantiated boasts and mud slinging should simply be allowed to be presented (over and over) without retort?

I told you a long time ago i am picky who i do business with and rejected you because i do not want your business after i checked you out!!!

It was a wise discussion i made
but you don't deal well with rejection
and have been bashing me ever since!

Now all you do is lie about me and spread bs about me because i rejected you

[wwest]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

I told you a long time ago i am picky who i do business with

Yes, but unlike you, most of us would be ashamed of taking advantage of the mentally challenged.

and rejected you because i do not want your business after i checked you out!!!

Ron, in other words your common sense works too your advantage.


It was a wise discussion i made
but you don't deal well with rejection
and have been bashing me ever since!

Now all you do is lie about me and spread bs about me because i rejected you

No one needs to lie or spread BS about you, you do a FINE job at that all on your own.

[KelogGes]

[KelogGes]

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by DaveMcKenz

Unfortunately he was not gifted with the interpersonal skills

He's pretty much chillin' lately. Thanks for that.

Originally Posted by KelogGes

And dump your TX valves in the trash

All I can say is valves from Texas are still made pretty good from what I hear.

Holding Back the Years.........

Loved that tune.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Holding Back the Years.........

I'm just waiting to see Reid's evidence that his much boasted, modern day innovations outperform the dinosaur technologies capable of consistent, nad freezing 911 interior temps in high 90s Texass summer heat - he's posted nothing of the kind in the past three years or so - and until such time, his a/c hubris shall be countered with

And Bob, did you notice the nuggie that Will gave me? I guess Hell froze last night (probably a refrigerant undercharge)!

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

He's pretty much chillin' lately. Thanks for that.



All I can say is valves from Texas are still made pretty good from what I hear.

Holding Back the Years.........

Loved that tune.

Howdy Bob,

Thermal Expansion valves (TXV) have been made for probably a 100 years now
The ones made in the USA and Europe are made well IF THEY ARE THE HIGH QUALITY ONES

The China ones really suck

ONLY THE High Quality TXV's kinda work OK but even these TXV's do not meter gases precisely at all

I always adjust them and manually set THE TXV SUPER HEAT on 911's to inject more liquid refrigerant into the evaporator down in the LOW 30s; but ALL TXV's DRIFT UNCONTROLLABLY, they can not be precisely set to meter; they constantly put out too much or too little refrigerant and "ARE NOT A PRECISE METERING DEVICE"!

Orifice Valves ON the other hand can be VERY PRECISE METERING DEVICE

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

I told you a long time ago i am picky who i do business with and rejected you because i do not want your business after i checked you out!!!

It was a wise discussion i made
but you don't deal well with rejection
and have been bashing me ever since!

Now all you do is lie about me and spread bs about me because i rejected you

Oh man, hilarious!

I offered to "Texas-test" your micro channel condensers that you were claiming were the a/c gods' (aka: you) gift to 911 air conditioning and you declined due to your fears of having the rug pulled out from under you. Ohhhhh, such heart rending rejection!

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

And Bob, did you notice the nuggie that Will gave me? I guess Hell froze last night!

Saw it. Had a beer or six to celebrate.

2015 can be a good year for AC threads.

I can only say what Willy and I have said from the beginning.........

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by KelogGes

Orifice Valves ON the other hand can be VERY PRECISE METERING DEVICE

Will read your recommended reference to orifice valves.

I think I have cut a few in half when replacing a line or two on some mid 2000's Fords near the R/D.