Starter troubles - no starter, why?

[gjmascoli]

After reinstalling engine 4 months ago after my first engine drop I had no starter. Starter seemed fine before the drop, but it was original, so I replaced battery and starter and was back I business.

Last month, after daily driving for a few weeks, the starter went intermittent, I.e. Turn the key and get all systems on, but no starter. Had to pop start a couple times so as not to get stranded at work. After a few incidents I decided to replace the ignition switch. Did that Sunday and back in business. Drive Sunday, several starts and stops, no prob. Drove to work Monday and Tuesday, no prob.

This morning, NO STARTER. Turn key, all systems go, but starter doesn't engage.

So: New battery, starter, ignition switch.

Ideas? Bad solenoid on new starter? Loose wire? short?

How to troubleshoot?

[McLaren-TAG]

I'd start (if you haven't already done it and are 100% sure they're fine) with redoing all of the ground connections as well as the stater cable at both ends. I'd also no overlook the stupid things, like perhaps an 80's alarm that wasn't completely removed that's left a failing starter kill switch/relay somewhere in your car.

[gjmascoli]

OK. This is a '76S, no alarm system, so I can put that worry aside.

I'm not very good at electrical gremlins, but I can check the grounds. I do have a new transmission-to-chassis ground strap to install because the originalis all freyed - perhaps that is the root of the problem, but prolly wishful thinking.

Perhaps related: my Tach also stopped working with the engine re-install, and I am also thinking that is ground related, hence the new ground strap.

[964TargaC2]

When mine did that it turned out to be the wire from ignition switch to starter solenoid, it had a break in it somewhere, never found the break but ran a new wire and no issues since

[GH85Carrera]

If everything was working fine with the starter before the engine drop, it almost has to be a grounding problem. The big ground strap on the transmission is for sure something to be 100% sure is solid. There are several grounds on the engine. Make sure they are all solid.

If it continues, then start checking the other issues.

[al lkosmal]

+1 on the ground strap. To check mine, i once used my jumper cables to connect from the ground point by the battery to the starter body. (connected my jumper cables to each other to form one, long jumper) Started right up and proved that the ground strap was the issue.

regards,
al

[Curt K]

+2 on ground strap. I had a grinding issue, gone after replacing ground from transmission to body.

[gjmascoli]

Ugh.

OK, the transmission ground strap was pretty crappy, replaced with a nice solid new one from our host, but still no dice. Turn the key and hold in the start position, I can hear the fuel pump hum and all other electricals work, but nothing from the starter. No clicking of the solenoid, etc.

Connections to starter seem solid.

So, what are the mossible ground connects that I may have messed up or missed when I reinstalled the engine after the drop?

Is there diagram showing the ground points throughout the car? I have the current flow diagram, but that doesn't help me with where to look.

Help please :-(

[timmy2]

14 pin connector at the rear of the fuse panel is where the yellow solenoid wire makes its final connection before the starter. Check for corrosion or a loose connection there.
Pin one is the yellow wire.
If you have a meter and someone to turn the ignition switch to crank, you could test to see if the yellow wire at the male number 1 pin of the 14 pin connector is getting voltage when you crank.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by timmy2

14 pin connector at the rear of the fuse panel is where the yellow solenoid wire makes its final connection before the starter. Check for corrosion or a loose connection there.
Pin one is the yellow wire.

+1 I remember reading Permatune's website for trouble shooting and they stressed checking this connection. Not for the yellow wire, of course. They warned about power washing the engine and getting water in there.

Also pins (male or female) can push back and it is hard to notice. Given this has been unplugged and recently plugged back in worth a look.

[yelcab1]

You need to attach a DVM to the solenoid wire, have a helper crank the key over, and observe what voltage you have. If it is >10V, and no start, you have a bad starter. If it is less than 5V, you have a break in the wire. Very likely the 14 pin connector pin is bad or broken.

[gjmascoli]

Thanks Dennis, Bob, and yelcab1.

I cleaned up the very minor corrosion on the pins, including pin 1 (naturally it had more corrosion than others, but really not too much). Tried starter, no dice.

Connected an analog volt meter between pin 1 and its female socket in the 14pin connector. Had positive (+) VM lead connected to the pin and negative (-) connected to the female socket in the 14pin connector.

With the 14 pin connector DISCONNECTED except for the line between pin 1 and socket 1 I had a helper turn the key to start positon. No Voltage, No current showing on the VM. I didn't ttry to touch the (-) to the body to see if my problem is the yellow wire from the 14-pin connector to the starter. Lemme go try that.

Yelcab, what is the correct method of connecting the VM to the yellow wire....kind of what I described?

[rick-l]

Voltage is a potential measured between two points. Put the negative lead on the engine and the + lead on the yellow wire.

[gjmascoli]

OK, checked it again, this time (-) negative lead on the engine and the (+) lead on the yellow wire. I got nothing.

REMINDER: the whole 14-pin connector is disconnected, except for a temporary lead between the 1-pin and 1-socket that I can tap the VM into.

So, do I have some screwy ground issue, or is the problem somewhere between the ignition switch and the 14-pin connector?

[timmy2]

All voltage references are normally to ground as Rick mentioned.
Positive wire on pin 1 and negative on ground, give it a crank to see if you have voltage.

[timmy2]

Were you on the male pin one attached to the fuse panel or in the female socket of the connector.
If the female one, you won't see voltage as it is only connected to the starter solenoid.

[timmy2]

Here is how the voltage makes it's way to the starter solenoid.
1. When key turned to start at switch 12 vdc is applied to the yellow wire. It runs through the 6 pin dash connector from the switch to a single spade connector that is part of the through body harness.
2. The voltage now travels directly through the through body harness to pin 1 of the 14 pin rear fuse panel connector.
3. Voltage now travels through the engine harness from pin one of the female engine harness 14 pin connector directly to the starter solenoid terminal.

[gjmascoli]

Dennis(timmy2)
I made the connection by:
1) disconnect the 14-pin connector
2) stick a long metal "pin" (actually a correct diameter steel nail) into #1 female socket in the 14-pin connector
3) run an aligator clip from male pin #1 to the "pin" that is inserted in 1 female socket
4) connect the (+) positive VM lead to the pin that is in 1 female socket
5) connect the (-) negative VM lead to the engine/body

So I have a hard connect between the #1 pin and socket.

If I was getting Voltage back to the connector,
THEN
if the yellow wire was broken between the 14-pin connector and the starter, that would explain the no starter
BUT
since I do not get any Voltage between pin #1 and the engine (or to the body if I move the ground connection) That seems to indicate I am not getting any voltage back to the connector and the problem is up front at the 6 pin dash connector or the single spade connector that is part of the through body harness.

Is my logic sound?

I think I came across the 6 pin connectors (there are three of them under the dash?) when I did the ignition switch.

Where do I find the single spade connector that is part of the through body harness?

[timmy2]

PM sent with my phone number. Call me and we can work through it easier if you want to.

[timmy2]

Get rid of the rod. Leave the female 14 pin harness off to the side.
You only are trying to see if power is making it to the male 14 pin terminal number one. (it is the last one on the bottom row closest to the fender)
Just touch the red meter probe to it and the black one to ground and turn switch to crank and see if you have a full 12 volts or more.