New Product: Performance Chip with Matched Injectors for 3.2L Carrera

[Arne2]

Ok, thanks to a fellow Pelican and customer of Sal, I will be able to test with a stock 24 pin chip before too long. Will be curious to see how this goes - I've never driven my car with a factory chip in it.

All of this has me thinking. I really like the idea of modern injectors and a custom chip to match, even for a car like mine that is 100% street and touring. I'm more interested in driveability and maybe even fuel economy than big HP gains. And I think this package could be useful for that.

But long term, I'm still wondering what we are going to do about worn out AFMs. That's why I may want to wait until later and do Sal's MAF kit instead. Probably overkill for an unmodified street car. But that would address all my future reliability concerns.

[scarceller]

My MAF is by far the best product for these cars but it cost money. But you get a 100% accurate air model, the MAF is a lab grade device every MAF I buy is flow benched and the results are registered with NIST a standards board for industrial devices! I only know one MAF provider in the industry that does this. With the MAF we know exactly how many grams of air are ingested per rev. Then I get fully speced injectors to do the same for the fuel model so we know exactly how the injectors spray fuel across the full pulse width range. If you trust your Air Model and your Fuel model, magic happens since it's all MATH for the most part after this. I want educated Customers, if you want to learn go to Amazon, look up Greg Banish and buy his books. I worked with him and built my system on those theories.

You are correct in the AFM as being a key component and these devices are 30 years old and if out of spec the air model becomes compromised. You really need to get both Air and Fuel models correct and accurate for best results. But I can do a decent job at estimating the Air model rather well with the AFM and the new injectors give me a real good feel for the fuel model. If the fuel is good and I see results are off base I know it's the Air Model.

Originally Posted by Arne2

Ok, thanks to a fellow Pelican and customer of Sal, I will be able to test with a stock 24 pin chip before too long. Will be curious to see how this goes - I've never driven my car with a factory chip in it.

All of this has me thinking. I really like the idea of modern injectors and a custom chip to match, even for a car like mine that is 100% street and touring. I'm more interested in driveability and maybe even fuel economy than big HP gains. And I think this package could be useful for that.

But long term, I'm still wondering what we are going to do about worn out AFMs. That's why I may want to wait until later and do Sal's MAF kit instead. Probably overkill for an unmodified street car. But that would address all my future reliability concerns.

[scarceller]

At this time I have 2 committed customers willing to test this setup out. We will keep folks posted on results, I asked that both customers attempt to document the experience and install. Both customers are doing the work themselves and I'm convinced they have the ability to do so. We'll provide updates as we go.

Thanks.

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by scarceller

What you are describing is Kangarooing or bucking at very light loads and low RPMs. I call this behavior the parking lot jerk and I know what causes it and how to eliminate it....

...If you are having problems with a aftermarket chip I suggest you contact that vendor about the issue but before you do you should put a stock chip in to see if the issue goes away. My bet is that the stock chip will be a lot better in this problem area.

You called it, Sal.

This afternoon, I replaced the 24-pin aftermarket chip in my car with a stock loaner, #1267355102. This is not reputed to be an especially great chip even as stock chips go, but I figured it'd do fine for testing purposes. I installed it and then took the car for a drive to warm it prior to shorting the terminals in the diagnostic port and resetting the idle back down to 800 again. (It had been at 880 with the aftermarket chip.)

The difference was immediate and large. Low speed drivability is greatly improved. The "kangaroo" jerk appears to be gone completely. The car drops to idle quicker, and is rock steady there, no slight hunting of idle speed as it settles. Amazing.

Bearing in mind that I never track my car, that it is a weekend tourer with occasional commuting, it is now apparent that a stock chip is more than sufficient for my needs. I can't see that I'd notice much loss at all if I went back to stock. I suppose the best for me as the car is now would be to convert to a 28 pin DME with the 358 chip, or maybe a 24 pin 4k 302 chip in my 4k-converted DME. Because even this 102 chip makes my car much easier and more pleasant to drive.

So now my next question is whether to use a stock chip with my current injectors, or jump up to this package with the better, modern injectors while I'm at it. I don't really need more power for my uses, but some of the other benefits listed might be nice.

[DaveMcKenz]

Arne,
I had the same experience when liberated of my SW chip. Please see my thread:

Sal Carceller's chip and injector system for 3.2

Good luck,
Dave

[scarceller]

The reason I know exactly what the cause of the kangaroo behavior is because I actually own a motor that also did this with a aftermarket chip. I have first hand knowledge of the cause and howto fix it. The stock chips fix it but the bad side is that they are still stock. I can deliver a decent performance chip with out the bucking bronco issues.

Some motor configurations simply are prone to this problem and you need to know what the cause is and what the fix is. But you have a good hint that the factory engineers knew what the problem was and tuned around it.

[pooder]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

Well, my 85 Carrera starts from cold and idles well. Got 24 mpg on my long road trip. Does not stumble. And you said your items will not improve H.P.? I'm sure you have a fine product but I think I will stay with my $10.00 bottle of Techron every few months vice your $800.

I have Sal's complete MAF system in my '87 3.4. I have done two long trips with this setup. One was driven at approximately 65 mph (indicated) average speed with two bikes mounted on top of the car and I got 27-28 mpg.
The other was without roof rack on higher speed interstates at 80+ mph (indicated) with an average of 28 mpg. Prior to my 3.4 conversion and the MAF I got upper mid 20's mpg when driven conservatively on the highway. The improved mpg's was a pleasant surprise despite a 6% increase in displacement with a disproportional increase (33%) in HP.

[mysocal911]

Originally Posted by Arne2

But long term, I'm still wondering what we are going to do about worn out AFMs. That's why I may want to wait until later and do Sal's MAF kit instead. Probably overkill for an unmodified street car. But that would address all my future reliability concerns.

And what about the long term reliability of a MAF, .e.g. ask those Porsche 993 owners.

Another potential waste of money for 911 3.2 owners!

[scarceller]

Dave,

Not sure what you mean reliability? The actual MAF device is guaranteed for life by my supplier. The device is also the only device of it's type that is tracked against NIST standards body, no other MAF in the industry does this. Each and every MAF is flow benched and must be within %2.0 of the master spec before NIST will accept the readings and log them. I'm not sure how I could possibly pick a better MAF?

I have several cars now with more than 10,000 miles on them with no issues.
My MAF system simply replaces components that are +30 years old with brand new modern day components while also improving MPG and Performance.

Originally Posted by mysocal911

And what about the long term reliability of a MAF, .e.g. ask those Porsche 993 owners.

Another potential waste of money for 911 3.2 owners!

[DaveMcKenz]

Hi Arne,
I think the AFM's will last pretty long. The spring and pivot are pretty durable. The contact area on the potentiometer track can be re-tracked once or twice. I had mine overhauled inexpensively after 30+ years of use. Fuel injectors can be cleaned but ultimately are wear items, so having the alternative of inexpensive, widely available modern injectors is the real plus of this system. Sal gives you a tuned chip for the new injectors and of course you retain your old chip and old injectors for backup if desired.
Only downside is the expense involved, but an analysis of replacement OEM injectors, SW chips, injector cleaning, chip programming, etc. will make this system very competitive for the right person.
Good luck,
Dave

[gliding_serpent]

The sad part of any car is that it degrades as soon as you turn it on. Heck, it degrades in different ways if you dont use it. Any part with a lifetime warranty is good in my books, but I admit i never even thought of that. I accept the costs of enjoying my toys. Still, i will keep my afm as a spare because i am like that.

[stlrj]

Originally Posted by Arne2

So now my next question is whether to use a stock chip with my current injectors, or jump up to this package with the better, modern injectors while I'm at it. I don't really need more power for my uses, but some of the other benefits listed might be nice.

Hi Arne,

I've had some experience with alternative injectors and have been trying different injectors on an 86 and an 87 3.2 for the past 10 years. The best injector I have come across is a modern 6 hole GM Multec that really wakes up the 3.2 and makes the idle purr smoother than any Bosch pintle injector could ever do. I also noticed my oil temps run quite a bit cooler too.

Here are some pictures:
http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/rp17089569.jpg

Rochester Flow Matched Fuel Injector Set for Chevy 2 8 3 1 3 3 17089569 6 | eBay

These are high impedance injectors and yet out perform any low impedance injectors I have tried regardless of the lower flow rate.

I hope this helps and if you have any questions, I would be more than happy to help.


Cheers,

Joe
Senior Redwood PCA member since 1976


Hi Sal,

I have some thoughts on the kangarooing effect and have noticed that as I moved to injectors with progressively lower flow rates the kangaroo effect seems to get much better and even disappear as it has with my latest 6 hole Multec. I run my test on a flat road in 5th gear at 12-1400rpm with hardly any throttle input (parking lot style) .

I also notice that when compared to GM on the injector flow rate charts, that Porsche tends to oversize their injectors regardless of displacement or if air or water cooled. That alone might explain why Porsche has so many driveability issues and smog related problems.

Again, just some thoughts.

Cheers,

Joe
Senior Redwood PCA member since 1976

[scarceller]

This is a great question!

I doubt that any hi-imp injector would ever have the same injector on time (dead time) as the stock lo-imp injectors. I have pointed this out many times, just because they flow the same once open (static flow) does not mean they are the same! You are playing with fire if you assume a hi-imp injector behaves like a lo-imp one. At a minimum if you want to try different injectors and not alter the DME code please do get a WBO2 gauge and verify the AFRs at:
- idle
- cruise
- tip in
- wot
Do this with the stock injectors first
Then repeat with the test ones
I bet you can't get the numbers to match across all 4 of those conditions, you may get them to match at 1 or 2 of those but not all 4. I've actually tried this approach it won't work correctly. Notice I said correctly, the car will run but the AFRs will be compromised at some of those operating conditions.

Originally Posted by jinj

What's the spec of the high-imp injectors?

[stlrj]

Originally Posted by scarceller

This is a great question!

I doubt that any hi-imp injector would ever have the same injector on time (dead time) as the stock lo-imp injectors. I have pointed this out many times, just because they flow the same once open (static flow) does not mean they are the same! You are playing with fire if you assume a hi-imp injector behaves like a lo-imp one. At a minimum if you want to try different injectors and not alter the DME code please do get a WBO2 gauge and verify the AFRs at:
- idle
- cruise
- tip in
- wot
Do this with the stock injectors first
Then repeat with the test ones
I bet you can't get the numbers to match across all 4 of those conditions, you may get them to match at 1 or 2 of those but not all 4. I've actually tried this approach it won't work correctly. Notice I said correctly, the car will run but the AFRs will be compromised at some of those operating conditions.

Hi Sal,

I agree that these injectors would likely not match the stock injectors in all parameters if any, for that matter, but then again that might be the reason they work so well.

Bottom line, they make my engine run cooler which means cooler cylinder head temps, less stress on my valve guides, better gas mileage, better throttle response and tip in and last but not least, no modifications to the DME required. This may not be asking very much, but this is my criteria.

Better still, it would be very helpful for all of us, if you would be willing to test these injectors for your input to see what your WBO2 says. I am very curious too and would be willing to send you a set for free if you would be willing to do that.

One more thing I forgot to mention, these are the same injectors I had used on my '86 3.2 over ten years ago that ran quite well except for the fact that the engine would not start up when warm without a start relay which incorporated a 1K resistor across the NO contact on the head temp sensor circuit which resulted in an additional 1K resistance whenever the starter was energized. But for some unknown reason, my 87 Carrera starts just fine when warm without any help from that relay...go figure.


Cheers,

Joe
Senior PCA member since 1976

[stlrj]

Here's a shot of my oil temp after 30mins at freeway speed. As you can see, it never gets close to opening the t-stat for the front oil cooler using Multecs from a 3.1 Chevy V6 flowing at an absurdly low 15.4#. These were the injectors that gave me such a hard time starting with a warm engine 10 years earlier, not the 3300 Multecs (18#) I mentioned above that I had them confused with. Part numbers on these Multecs are extremely difficult to read plus the fact that flow charts are hard to find as well as incomplete.

Meanwhile, I will have to rig up another warm start relay to solve the warms start issue these injectors cause, but a small price to pay for such peppy performance that even the larger 18# 3300 Multecs could not equal.




Cheers,

Joe
Senior Redwood PCA member since 1976

[mysocal911]

Originally Posted by stlrj

Bottom line, they make my engine run cooler which means cooler cylinder head temps, less stress on my valve guides, better gas mileage, better throttle response and tip in and last but not least, no modifications to the DME required.

The injectors "make my engine run cooler". Really?

Another engineering design flaw from Bosch/Porsche? Like, where was Porsche & Bosch
getting their engineers from and how could they have overlooked something as simple
as optimizing the injectors for the 911 3.2, given all the potential benefits mentioned
above?

[scarceller]

The only way new injectors can effect operating temps is if the old ones are not flowing properly and possibly under-fueling the motor. You can't do this sort of analyses without proper instruments, I'll say it again. Please do get a decent WideBand O2 gauge so you know exactly what you have in both configurations.

[scarceller]

This setup is also running my Chip + Injector package in this thread:
84-89 911 Exhaust, proven results!

[GregoryS]

Hi Sal, I am interested in your Performance Chip and the Injectors.
Please contact me at g.sachs@sympatico.ca
Gregory

[scarceller]

UPDATE:
I'm now offering this same package but it uses Bosch OEM 4-hole 30lb injectors instead of the FORD 24lb injectors. I was able to secure a source for these Bosch units at a reasonable price but the package cost had to go up by $100. The product with these Bosch injectors is now priced at $900. Everything else is the same, I just decided to switch over to the Bosch 30lb injectors.

Added bonus is that the new 30lb injectors can now easily handle the 3.4L or 3.5L upgrade motors. However, I strongly suggest my MAF product for these larger motors.

If you have bad injectors and are having a hard time locating stock units this Chip+Injector package may be the best solution.