3.0sc top and bottom end rebuild.... upgrades?

[sempaipaul]

Alright, guys.

My 3.0 from my 79' targa is soon to go under a knife for a top and bottom end overhaul. I am also at this time trying to figure out if any upgrades should be done as this rebuild is carries out. I was considering 964 cams, but am now questioning that due to the mixed feelings on the loss of bottom and mid range power.

Is there anything else I should consider whether engine, ignition, or anything else while in there for reliability as well as some additional power? I want to sway away from replacing pistons and cylinders... that would be too much. Additionally, the car already has the carrera tensioner and will likely be re eiving the 993 headers with happy crab equivalent exhaust.

Look forward to some opinions

Thanks,
Paul

[timmy2]

EFI really woke my stock 3.0 up. I already had SSI's and a Dansk 2-1 installed running CIS.
Setting cam timing to euro specs may make a small difference as well.

[SoyRacer]

Aggressive cam timing with correctly set ignition timing on a freshly rebuilt 3.0 is actually a very fun ride. Be sure to have the rods checked and rebushed if necessary. Also, check pads and bushings on all rockers and reassemble with o-rings on the rocker shafts. Replace the timing chains, they're cheap. Check my Instagram for ideas.

[jamesjedi]

Wayne (Pelican Parts Wayne) has an excellent book on rebuilding these engines, along with the various options for the rebuild.

Also, check the engine rebuild section of the forum.

[gomezoneill]

Check for dilivar head studs and replace them with steel. Use a magnet to check.

[bgyglfr]

I'm not sure the 964 can will cause a significant loss in bottom end power. It would be worth a call to one of the cam grinders to get their input. They may also have a hybrid grind for you.

Get the dizzy recurved. It's the most cost effective seat of the pants hp you can buy. Basically, you have the ignition advance all in earlier creating a more responsive feel.

[wayner]

Are you planning on keeping the stock CIS or replace it?

If you keep it I think that limits some of your options. I think that is your first decision that can then open the door to other decisions. (A 964 cam doesn't so much limit low end performance, as undue some of the cam compromises required for that induction system)

BTW, I have an almost new set of 9.5:1 pistons/cylinders for a 3.0 if it turns out that your need replacing.

[john walker's workshop]

20/21 cams from Webcam wake up a 3.0 nicely.

[juanbenae]

I would consider the 996 GT3 rod & main bearings. only a few bucks more than the OE glyco's that have had some quality issues in recent years. do a search in the engine rebuild forum, a ton of good info there.

[sempaipaul]

Originally Posted by timmy2

EFI really woke my stock 3.0 up. I already had SSI's and a Dansk 2-1 installed running CIS.
Setting cam timing to euro specs may make a small difference as well.

I need to do some more research on EFI. Thanks for your input.

Originally Posted by SoyRacer

Aggressive cam timing with correctly set ignition timing on a freshly rebuilt 3.0 is actually a very fun ride. Be sure to have the rods checked and rebushed if necessary. Also, check pads and bushings on all rockers and reassemble with o-rings on the rocker shafts. Replace the timing chains, they're cheap. Check my Instagram for ideas.

Yes, rods will be checked and refurbished as necessary --- same for rockers. Good point on timing chains. I'll put that on the list. Thanks.

Originally Posted by gomezoneill

Check for dilivar head studs and replace them with steel. Use a magnet to check.

Thanks ---- I was actually thinking of using ARP head studs, case studs, transmission mount studs. Thoughts? Some say this is key --- some say it is not important and not worth spending the extra $$$ on.

Originally Posted by bgyglfr

I'm not sure the 964 can will cause a significant loss in bottom end power. It would be worth a call to one of the cam grinders to get their input. They may also have a hybrid grind for you.

Get the dizzy recurved. It's the most cost effective seat of the pants hp you can buy. Basically, you have the ignition advance all in earlier creating a more responsive feel.

I called webcams and they have the 964 cams and the 20/21 grind cams. I talked to them for awhile but to this point haven't been able to nail down the definite difference between the two.

What's a "dizzy" sorry --- slightly confused

Originally Posted by wayner

Are you planning on keeping the stock CIS or replace it?

If you keep it I think that limits some of your options. I think that is your first decision that can then open the door to other decisions. (A 964 cam doesn't so much limit low end performance, as undue some of the cam compromises required for that induction system)

BTW, I have an almost new set of 9.5:1 pistons/cylinders for a 3.0 if it turns out that your need replacing.

Keeping the CIS. From what webcams told me only the 964 and the 20/21 cams would work with that. We are now in touch in regards to your pistons

Originally Posted by car 311

I would consider the 996 GT3 rod & main bearings. only a few bucks more than the OE glyco's that have had some quality issues in recent years. do a search in the engine rebuild forum, a ton of good info there.

Yes -- absolutely in on the GT3 rod & main bearings. Not going to risk anything with glyco's.

-----------------------------

Overall --- thus far I am planning on:
1. 9.5:1 pistons (which should provide some low end power add)
2. 964 or 20/21 cams (which should provide some top end power add --- need to determine which one)
3. 993 heat exchangers (with flipped flanges) and, a custom exhaust. I have heard however, that these may be too large for the 3.0 and that would rob power?
4. 996 GT3 rod and main bearings
5. ARP head studs (worth the money?)
6. ARP case studs (worth the money?)
7. ARP transmission mount studs (worth the money?)
8. Phosphorus bronze valve guides (need recommendations for a brand --- is there a better alternative?)
9. New timing chains

Thanks,
Paul

[sempaipaul]

Any further thoughts, guys?

Thanks
Paul

[wilke3169]

I rebuilt my '79, 3.0 engine 10 years ago. Hard to believe it has been that long. The upgrades were 9.5:1 JEs, 964 cams, and SSIs. I have had no issues and was very pleased with the outcome. I later added a MSD ignition which helps tremendously with the low end.
It is a slippery slope.

[Joe Bob]

I did the 964 cams on my 914/6 and have driven a 20/21 equipped ride. Both are worthwhile. EFI from PMO or talking to Al Kosmal on this board is a good idea. Not cheap but better than old school carbs.

[al lkosmal]

Paul,

EFI is a good choice, but i may be biased......a little..........................

I'm currently building a 3.0 with 9.8:1 JEs, Mod-E cams, X-faktory S3-EFI/ITB kit, headers, sport muffler....Rasant/AEM Infinity engine management. This build is happening now. See it progress and how it all turns out.....

The next big thing....3.0 EFI/ITB w/Rasant engine management

Some earlier builds.

Stock 3.0 with x-faktory EFI/ITBs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VeYQv8CvV0

2.7 RS-ish with TWM/borla EFI/ITBs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWB99lddFew


regards,
al

PS: thx for the reference mike....

[LakeCleElum]

I've had this 3.0 (now 3.2) in my 73.5 for 5 years now and couldn't be happier (CIS, MSD and early exhaust - fantastic oil pressure):

Recently removed upgraded '81 SC engine and transmission from my '81 SC after car was damaged in front, causing parting out the car. Upgrades include 1) Max Moritz 3.2 liter pistons and cylinders, 2) 964 cams, 3) Raceware hardware, balanced rods, Carrera oil pump. New parts included: intake valve sleeves, rod bearings and rods balanced, and rocker arms. Transmission clutch disk, pilot bearing and fork were replaced. All of the above was performed in 2004 at 120,000 miles approx. and now at 132,000 miles. Transmission has recently installed Quaif LSD. Good solid reliable running engine with no oil leaks. Transmission will need third gear syncro replaced in future depending on how fast you want to change gear. Asking $6,000 for both, or $4,500 for engine and $1,500 for transmission. Located in Southern California. Can send photos via email.

(The ad above is from when I bought the engine. Posting only to answer the OP's question. This engine is not for sale. Sorry if misleading to those that have PM'ed me)

[Joe Bob]

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

I've had this 3.0 (now 3.2) in my 73.5 for 5 years now and couldn't be happier (CIS, MSD and early exhaust - fantastic oil pressure):

Recently removed upgraded '81 SC engine and transmission from my '81 SC after car was damaged in front, causing parting out the car. Upgrades include 1) Max Moritz 3.2 liter pistons and cylinders, 2) 964 cams, 3) Raceware hardware, balanced rods, Carrera oil pump. New parts included: intake valve sleeves, rod bearings and rods balanced, and rocker arms. Transmission clutch disk, pilot bearing and fork were replaced. All of the above was performed in 2004 at 120,000 miles approx. and now at 132,000 miles. Transmission has recently installed Quaif LSD. Good solid reliable running engine with no oil leaks. Transmission will need third gear syncro replaced in future depending on how fast you want to change gear. Asking $6,000 for both, or $4,500 for engine and $1,500 for transmission. Located in Southern California. Can send photos via email.

Good price and a good guy, you could do worse.

[atcjorg]

pm sent

[sempaipaul]

Originally Posted by wilke3169

I rebuilt my '79, 3.0 engine 10 years ago. Hard to believe it has been that long. The upgrades were 9.5:1 JEs, 964 cams, and SSIs. I have had no issues and was very pleased with the outcome. I later added a MSD ignition which helps tremendously with the low end.
It is a slippery slope.

Sounds like exactly what I am going for. Still torn between the 964's and the 20/21's. Did you do anything with your timing? How hard was the MSD install? The full EFI deal seems wayyyy too expensive for me at this time... It looks like a healthy $3K+ add to my build

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

I did the 964 cams on my 914/6 and have driven a 20/21 equipped ride. Both are worthwhile. EFI from PMO or talking to Al Kosmal on this board is a good idea. Not cheap but better than old school carbs.

Any thoughts on whether 964 or 20/21 had more power at low range?

Originally Posted by al lkosmal

Paul,

EFI is a good choice, but i may be biased......a little..........................

I'm currently building a 3.0 with 9.8:1 JEs, Mod-E cams, X-faktory S3-EFI/ITB kit, headers, sport muffler....Rasant/AEM Infinity engine management. This build is happening now. See it progress and how it all turns out.....

The next big thing....3.0 EFI/ITB w/Rasant engine management

Some earlier builds.

Stock 3.0 with x-faktory EFI/ITBs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VeYQv8CvV0

2.7 RS-ish with TWM/borla EFI/ITBs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWB99lddFew


regards,
al

PS: thx for the reference mike....

wow... those are amazing. I think the EFI route is out of budget for now.. may just go for MSD ignition. My builder also suggested Bosch CDI ignition. Not quite sure on the details of this one yet --- need to do some more research.

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

I've had this 3.0 (now 3.2) in my 73.5 for 5 years now and couldn't be happier (CIS, MSD and early exhaust - fantastic oil pressure):

Recently removed upgraded '81 SC engine and transmission from my '81 SC after car was damaged in front, causing parting out the car. Upgrades include 1) Max Moritz 3.2 liter pistons and cylinders, 2) 964 cams, 3) Raceware hardware, balanced rods, Carrera oil pump. New parts included: intake valve sleeves, rod bearings and rods balanced, and rocker arms. Transmission clutch disk, pilot bearing and fork were replaced. All of the above was performed in 2004 at 120,000 miles approx. and now at 132,000 miles. Transmission has recently installed Quaif LSD. Good solid reliable running engine with no oil leaks. Transmission will need third gear syncro replaced in future depending on how fast you want to change gear. Asking $6,000 for both, or $4,500 for engine and $1,500 for transmission. Located in Southern California. Can send photos via email.

(The ad above is from when I bought the engine. Posting only to answer the OP's question. This engine is not for sale. Sorry if misleading to those that have PM'ed me)

wow. looks like a pretty amazing deal. I am looking at Raceware hardware instead of ARP now... not sure which is best? some people say stock is actually best? thoughts?

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

[sempaipaul]

Guys,

I also need some help selecting a new clutch set up for my rebuilt engine and tranny I assume I'll gain a few horses with the things I am looking to do.

-Paul

[sempaipaul]

Well --- here you guys go. I'm just going to leave this here for some drools......















Featuring JE 9:5.1, 964 cams, oem bearings, ARP rod bolts, Supertec head studs, SSI's, super clutch kit, and all kinds of other stuff

Still need to figure out the muffler game for the SSI's, get a new wiring harness, and several other pieces. The engine is already disassembled. The heads should be going to the machine shop this week.

Best,
Paul