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I paid $1000 (10 hours at $100) for Al to tune my car. It was delivered twice with a bad / incomplete tune. After getting the tune corrected by a dyno shop with a very good tech it appears the car was delivered with a malfunctioning temp sensor for the Megasquirt ECU. Does anyone know where this sensor would be for those that have Al's kits installed? Otherwise, I will have the tuning tech trace the wiring from the Megasquirt to the block. Hopefully it is an easy sensor replacement as it is needed for cold starts yet it was causing the tune to go randomly rich at warm operating temps. Both my mechanic and the lead tech at the dyno shop cannot believe the car was delivered with these issues.

Scott

What temp sensor are you using? I have my car at a shop getting tuned now. I had an AEM oil temp sensor in the left cam cover as that’s what I’ve seen many others do around here and my car, ‘79 SC, did not come with a CHT. One of the first things that the shop pointed out was the inconsistent reading that the oil temp sensor and its location may give. From what they told me, it sounded like the sensor wasn’t seeing accurate temps and holding the car in warm up for much longer than needed. I had them instal a CHT on one of the heads fins per their recommendation. Might just be a preference of theirs with tuning but might make sense for a lot of set ups

Also, have you talked with Al about the issue? In all of my exchanges with him he has been a 110% stand up guy. That matches everything else I’ve seen on the forums until this post

Yes I have. Al is refusing to do any more work on my car after I identified and notified him of multiple issues after the second delivery of my car. I have never experienced anything like this before. I just want my car to start and run like it did before the upgrade.

Scott

The EFI scene for these cars is growing and it's really not as complicated as some people want to believe. There are some variables to tackle for sure but nothing that can't be overcome. I DIY'd my EFI with zero experience and my car is running reliably after running down a few teething issues (also rebuilt top end at the same time).

Regarding your temp sensors, you should have an intake air temp (IAT) sensor and a cylinder head temp (CHT) sensor. The intake temp sensor is likely a GM part and threaded into one of the ITBs. The CHT (your likely culprit) is possibly a ring terminal thermistor that is using one of the upper valve cover studs or one of the oil lines to get a temp. Both are easy and cheap fixes if faulty.

Sorry to hear your experience regarding Al, he's always been helpful to me without me spending a dime with him.

I don’t typically have to defend myself, my systems or my work and doing so on a forum is usually an exercise in finger-pointing………but I will keep this as short as possible.
It took me two tries, but eventually I provided a system/tune that met worked very well and….seemed to meet Scott’s requirements.
The 1st tune was running a bit too rich and seemed to rev limit at 5000 RPM in 1st…….too rich during cruise, etc. I suspect that I may have inadvertently loaded an earlier tune....as i had addressed those issues........

Scott provided me with a list of about 10 items that needed to be addressed..Most of the items were tune related and one item was related to a paint chip adjacent to the engine lid.
I spent a lot of time making sure that I addressed the points on Scott’s list.
I followed up with a leak-down test that showed the engine was healthy and took it out for a final run and video…..ran great. I often take these videos to have a record of the condition of the car/tune, prior to shipping
Here’s a link to the video……. Video is kind of long and boring…but the 911 ran great and the logs showed that the AFRs were decent too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIXcacSzjDM&t=7s

So, that was a wrap and Scott emailed me on 05/20:
Hi Al,

"Car made it back safely and took it for a drive. It is so much better than the first time I picked it up. Hand throttle worked as expected and was no problem. Idle was great an pulled hard up to redline without any breakup. I could not get on it too much as it was rush hour traffic in semi-back roads. I think I may have lost a little throttle response / torque in 2.5k RPM - 3.5 RPM takeoffs, but I am not totally sure. Might be interesting to do a dyno tuning session. Hopefully that can be done in a few hours with our carb rebuilders in Kirkland (Carb Connection). Speaking of which, did you make a backup copy of my current file?

Thanks again, it was fun, interesting and exciting to drive..."

Scott


My response:

Thu 5/20/2021 6:42 PM
Scott, Glad that you are happy with it....it definitely took some time. Torque doesn't come on until 3500 +....but you'll definitely need the dyno to refine that area. I did remember to make a copy for you..


Since that happy day Scott has contacted me regarding the rock chip……basically implying that I dropped and dragged something heavy over his fender causing scratches and it needed to be repainted/blended…..……… I guaranty that this never happened. However the chip may have.

I told Scott to get an estimate and I’d consider helping with that…….but in the back of my mind, an alarm bell went off as a simple chip escalated into much more.

In the pic below, the arrow is pointing to the chip…….

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1622922026.JPG

Next , a week or two later, Scott emailed me that his brake lights and backup lights weren’t working. My reply to this was that the EFI system just replaced the engine/control harness and did not get into the chassis or front/rear lighting harness(s) at all. Also, in general the wiring in this car is a mess, with clipped off wires, butt splices and even household electrical wire-nuts used on some connections. Pretty much par for the course for an early car that has been forward dated and has been implanted with a 3.2 back in the day. I don’t believe that this issue was related to the EFI install ….and don’t accept responsibility for the general lighting/wiring problems. …..More alarm bells were going off in my head……..and I told Scott that I would not work on it.

If there is a failed temp sensor on the system, I will provide a new one…….anyone that has dealt with me knows that……….

My take on this is……Scott is basically just not satisfied with the Dyno run …. ……….. The dyno tuner did a good job…..(he is supposed to find ways to improve the tune and he did) … ….…..and based on the dyno run data presented, it is performing better than the previous chipped configuration, pretty much throughout the range …..just not to the extent others have experienced. So it may be missing the bragging rights element.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1622922080.JPG


I’ve never been to a dyno…I tune on the road, but often recommend that you go to a dyno to refine the tune and get the last percent. I never guaranty HP and TQ improvements, because there are other things involved besides the EFI kit……but I do refer to my customers dyno runs for reference as that is unbiased, 3rd party results. However, your results may vary……….

Anyway, the internet is a particularly poor way to communicate, but a particularly good way to injure someone’s reputation.

Regards,
al

I can only say my interaction with Al has been professional. I think that the one complaining should take off the stuff he doesn't care to understand and go back to whatever engine setup he was running before. Furthermore, I think the expectation of a forward date basket case can be anything but subpar. I am planning to install one of Al's kits on my 2.7 and he offered his tune service which I respectfully declined because the engine was unknown and I needed to ensure it was up to par before I would even think about sending it to him.

Hi Al,

I don't want this to escalate. Overall, I am happy with my current dyno tune of the system. This Option 2 project resulted in a very slight upgrade in performance for torque and hp and 3 dyno runs prove that. I did expect more. With that said, the documented problems with my car after the delivery have nothing to do with my feelings about the upgrade. Let me address them specifically:

- I just inspected the yellow wire for the temp sensor and the fan shroud bolt was loose after you helped me out in your email reply. In fact, 4 others were loose also. Not sure how this happened but no one has touched a bolt in the engine bay since the car was delivered. I tightened it and the temp sensor is reading correctly in TS. Thank you.
- My mechanic addressed the brake and reverse lights last week. After investigation, he found 50% of the fuse box up front did not have power. He ran a jumper from the one side of the box to another and I have reverse and brake lights now. Obviously this was from the upgrade work as my fuse box and lights were working correctly before.
- The paint chip was not there when I dropped the car off for the install and it does not show in a video I took of the car running for the purpose of selling the factory intake system just before I dropped the car off. As for the closely located scratches, I do not remember them being there.

Scott

Scott, I think you need to adjust how you think the process of customizing cars goes. The moment you cross the threshold into custom / hotrod, you just have to accept that you're going to be chasing knock on issues. I am still chasing exhaust issues, for example.

Al is as good as they get for keeping his clients informed and involved, but if you want turn key mods then you're going to have to open your wallet a lot wider into Singer territory.

Wait so instead of fixing your fuse box the correct way you let your "mechanic" run an extra wire????

Does that power curve shows the numbers on a flywheel or on wheels? If that's whp so you have your 210 hp

I don`t remember anyone around here saying "go ITB`s, you`ll have all the power in the world". Good looks, to get rid of CIS and/or to have a good base for further mods to get more power.
ITB`s as it is hardly will give anything, probs just a bit. Which is fair enough.

^^^^
THIS!

Well said.

What is the 'Gold Card' reference to? Is it an income/wealth thing? Or a derogatory term for a demographic?

I'm Australian so unfamiliar with the term.

Ever heard the phrase "correlation does not imply causation"?

This is laughable. So Al's ITB installation somehow messed up your fusebox and this "mechanic" added yet one more hack to your already clearly hacked up wiring and he's a hero...

Only at the wheel numbers matter, so my expectations of 210+ whp, 200+ wheel torque were not met.

This is a temporary fix. I've learned a lot about this car and do not know it's entire history. When I bought it in 2007 the PPI did not say anything about bad or questionable wiring. I am trying to make it right / better incrementally each year I own it.

Scott

Al is one of the good guys. He once sent me a part I needed (on his dime) without even charging me shipping. He's as stand up as they come. No reason to bring this dispute onto a public forum IMO.

Agree.
No one can plan for all eventualities, as much as we all wish we could. I hope both parties will be able to rectify this off line rather in a forum setting.

Hi all.

I have a tuning question I hope someone can answer, perhaps Al would be so kind to give me some tips?

I have a 3.2 short stroke with RSR cams and 46mm PMO ITB’s that idles quite low when cold, around 700rpm’s.

It idles nice around 950-980rpm’s when warm.

I would like to get the cold idle up to the same as when warm.

Thanks in advance for all help.

Cheers


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Does your setup have a head temp sensor?

Yes it does.


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The issue with cold start is more air flow. your RSR cams with narrow lobe centers and high overlap exasperate the inefficient combustion issues that cause low airflow. You can enrich the mixture on cold start - but this just keeps it running. It does not increase the idle speed. You can increase the ignition advance (to a point) and this will add some rpm but not enough to get you to a high enough rpm.

Low rpm cold start needs more airflow. This is done by your right foot, hand throttle or some external idle valve.

There are different ways to accomplish the last two on the list above.

This post might be helpful:

https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/656830-9m-motec-m84-upgrade-on-non-varioram-3.html#post8911155

I never said Al is anything but one of the good guys. In fact, after learning many things about this upgrade, I'm considering this issue closed with Al even though I have things to address as I did not receive one of his stellar tunes (not my words, but instead the words from my lead dyno tech) and I have a fuse box lead rewire and paint fix to address after a quick fuse box repair was done. Additionally, I hope Al offers a friendly nod if we ever cross paths in the future as I know I will extend one to him. I did learn a lot from this upgrade and I wish there were more 3.2 before and after dyno posts to base their upgrade decisions on when I was making decisions over this upgrade. I was due for notable maintenance on my factory 3.2 system for the soft fuel lines and related, which is not cheap and which was the motivating factor on going with Al's Option 2 kit. After discussion and research, we both agreed would be a notable upgrade to an older system. We did not get the 15% upgrade numbers we hypothesized (no guarantees footnote here). I also learned while he refused to do any additional work on my car, an owner does not have much options around that decision except for contesting original billing charges or legal action, neither of which I plan on doing.

Scott

One of the reasons I went for electronically operated throttle with ITB's: no need for external idle valve which would be a must if wanting to retain nice behaviour in all conditions (cold starts, high beams, fan, A/C etc).

How are you doing this? Do you have a DBW motor running all of the TB linkage? I considered this but also was looking at a single DBW throttle body.

I also learned while he refused to do any additional work on my car, an owner does not have much options around that decision except for contesting original billing charges or legal action, neither of which I plan on doing.

Scott[/QUOTE]

So, instead you decide to try and soil his reputation by posting here.
Wow! As a small business owner I’ve had similar customers. Nightmare.
Unrealistic expectations going into the project and finding unrelated problems that seem to have nothing to do with the work done.
Over the almost three decades I’ve been in business, I’ve only had a few problem clients. Looking back, I would have been so much better off cutting ties.
Some people will never be satisfied and it’s a fool’s errand to try.
I think Al made the right decision to say enough is enough.
As pointed out in a earlier post, EFI/ITB by itself will not provide huge power gains. It will provide a safe and reliable motor should one want to add power
through internal power mods.

How does 179whp for a 3.2 with Steve W chip and SSI etc compare to what others typically see? That seems quite low to me.

Looking at this dynojet graph, you're down about 27whp.
(blue line= w/ SW chip and euro premuffler. Red line= stock chip with euro premuffler)

https://www.911chips.com/dyno32bg.gif

I use BMW S54B32 throttle motor (it has electronically actuated ITB's from factory) and E46 throttle pedal, VEMS ECU controls it all.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1623175558.jpg

EFI actually does provide more power and torque as it allows to fine tune each load cell and get the most out of the engine.
Not to mention consistency, streetability etc.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1623166368.jpg

This is my ITB setup as of last night. (and this morning)
25 mpg on flat, midwestern freeway, 17-21 bombing through the mountains.
Ran great even as dirty as it was after all those gravel miles...on a 3/4 ass VE map.

Gotta love ITBs and EFI.

I talked to Steve before doing the ITB upgrade. He said my much earlier and flatter torque (notably higher than the graph below and something I really like) plus a limited higher end for numbers is the SSI signature. The caption for this dyno graph just said headers (not SSIs specifically) and going by what Steve said I would be they are not SSIs.

Scott

ITB Upgragec
 

So after $4500-7500 was it worth it for 35-45 hp?Now you have a car that most shops can not tune.Where is the value with this upgrade?Ihave only done Motec since 1988.Very steady and reliable.SmileWavy

Sbrown.NW

If you are paying someone to tune EFI maps that is not using a dyno, you are wasting your money. Yes, throttle balance and idle can all be tuned with out, but if you want it to run at it's peak, put it on a proper dyno that can run load, not a dyno jet. It will actually cost the same or less at the end of the day as the time factor to get it dialed is significantly reduced, and with the current tuner, it will be DIALED.

Cheers

Fred, most performance shops doing this sort of upgrade have a dyno (we don't), have access to a dyno (we do) or have a relationship with a tuner with one who understands what the goals are (we do). Without these available resources nothing can be optimized to its full potential. But these builds are not rare or hard to solve with the right access to equipment and knowledge.

Once the tuning is complete, annual maintenance of setting the throttle balance is FAR easier than dealing Carbs or CIS and certainly MFI for ANY quality shop to perform.

One simply need to network with the correct people (if not available in house) then the maintenance/tune up side is easy.

Cheers

Greetings........jpnovak summed it up very well......EFI can be tuned to provide decent cold starting...but it is a bit of a trade-off between cold RPMs and Warm/hot RPMs.....those that do not like the cold/low rpms.....are used to the cold start mechanisms that add air......typically need to add a device to compensate....do you have an early car with the hand throttle? If not, you might consider installing an Idle Air control valve (IAC) or...I've seen mentioned the drive by wire type throttle actuator (I've not used this yet, but might have to try it soon). However...I like simple and the hand throttle is my preference for cold starts...early mechanical, blended with new EFI..........thats just me, i could be wrong....

regards,
al

Thanks a lot to both al and jpnovak for real good answers :)

Regards


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