Post your ITB Setup

[montauk]

I bought a BMW throttle motor and pedal. I'm waiting for my PMO EFI setup to be delivered. I bought the BMW stuff because it was not very expensive and because I've seen it used before.

I've got one problem (probably more, I'm new to all this). The BMW throttle motor is the older style with only one position sensor output. I need two on the throttle motor and two on the pedal. The pedal has two so no problem there.

I think I have four options for the throttle motor:

1 - swap out the BMW sensor for a newer one that has two sensors - I haven't found one that fits.

2 - Use the sensors on the PMO throttle shafts - I'm not sure that would work. I read somewhere that the ECU is looking for different voltages from the sensors so might need a resistor. The second problem is that they're not on the same shaft so even small differences in movement could be a problem.

3 - Attach a separate TPS to one of the throttle arms - seems easy but a bit of a kluge.

4 - Use the single sensor on the throttle motor and make up a second output with a small resistor (I read about this on a Link ECU forum). Not a great idea because I'm removing the safety factor of dual sensors.

Any ideas? Thanks

[Matt Romanowski]

Originally Posted by montauk

I bought a BMW throttle motor and pedal. I'm waiting for my PMO EFI setup to be delivered. I bought the BMW stuff because it was not very expensive and because I've seen it used before.

I've got one problem (probably more, I'm new to all this). The BMW throttle motor is the older style with only one position sensor output. I need two on the throttle motor and two on the pedal. The pedal has two so no problem there.

I think I have four options for the throttle motor:

1 - swap out the BMW sensor for a newer one that has two sensors - I haven't found one that fits.

2 - Use the sensors on the PMO throttle shafts - I'm not sure that would work. I read somewhere that the ECU is looking for different voltages from the sensors so might need a resistor. The second problem is that they're not on the same shaft so even small differences in movement could be a problem.

3 - Attach a separate TPS to one of the throttle arms - seems easy but a bit of a kluge.

4 - Use the single sensor on the throttle motor and make up a second output with a small resistor (I read about this on a Link ECU forum). Not a great idea because I'm removing the safety factor of dual sensors.

Any ideas? Thanks

Why not buy the throttle motor that has dual output and use that? Seems a much easier and cheaper (in time and money) than kludging something together.

I believe most dual output TPS have one that goes 0-5 and another that goes 5-0. A resistor will not help with that. There are dual output sensors available, but they are about the price of the cheap BWM throttle bodies.

[montauk]

Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski

Why not buy the throttle motor that has dual output and use that? Seems a much easier and cheaper (in time and money) than kludging something together.

I believe most dual output TPS have one that goes 0-5 and another that goes 5-0. A resistor will not help with that. There are dual output sensors available, but they are about the price of the cheap BWM throttle bodies.

Two reasons, one I already bought one without realizing I had a problem and I don't want to spend $1000 for one but that may be the best way to proceed. I think you're right about one going positive and one going negative. I'm not sure how that guy got it work with a resistor - it's very likely he didn't.

One good thing about buying a throttle motor from a BMW is that they made 1000's so the track record is there.

[Matt Romanowski]

Originally Posted by montauk

Two reasons, one I already bought one without realizing I had a problem and I don't want to spend $1000 for one but that may be the best way to proceed. I think you're right about one going positive and one going negative. I'm not sure how that guy got it work with a resistor - it's very likely he didn't.

One good thing about buying a throttle motor from a BMW is that they made 1000's so the track record is there.

The DBW throttle bodies are about $500 and can be way cheaper if you buy aftermarket. Also look at the GM depending on what size you need.

Your first mistake is the cheapest.

[montauk]

This is the part I bought used for $250. There's a lot of throttle body motors attached to throttle bodies but not many separate throttle motors.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/13627840537.htm?pn=13-62-7-840-537-BOE&gad_source=1

[winders]

You really should look at the EFI Hardware DBW actuator I posted about earlier. It uses the same Bosch motor used all over the Industry and is packaged in a flexible way that will work in a lot of installations. Sometimes it is not cost effective to buy the “cheap” solution.

I can tell you from experience that you want the position sensors in the DBW actuator and not on the ITBs.

[SiracHaile]

I agree with Winders the EFI Hardware actuator is the better solution and will save you headaches in the future. Reliable Bosch unit too.

I opted for a single unit with a combination of the linkage my Clewett ITB kit came with. Paired with the Toptunning 997 pedal and adapter bracket you have a working solution.

https://www.topperformancetuning.com/shop/p/911-dbw-997-pedal-and-mount-kit

[Matt Romanowski]

Kinsler has a really nice looking DBW unit, but it's $$$

[winders]

Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski

Kinsler has a really nice looking DBW unit, but it's $$$

The Kinsler DBW actuator is fantastic. But, it is over $4000 and only a reasonable option for people with stupidly deep pockets…like probINSA teams. Remember, it’s a good idea to have a spare if you need high availability of your car. The EFI Hardware DBW actuator seems to work extremely well and is super reliable.

[winders]

Originally Posted by SiracHaile

I agree with Winders the EFI Hardware actuator is the better solution and will save you headaches in the future. Reliable Bosch unit too.

I opted for a single unit with a combination of the linkage my Clewett ITB kit came with. Paired with the Toptunning 997 pedal and adapter bracket you have a working solution.

https://www.topperformancetuning.com/shop/p/911-dbw-997-pedal-and-mount-kit

That’s a nice setup.

Sometimes I think I should have gone with a single actuator setup. It would have been simpler from wiring, ECU programming, and fabrication perspectives while being quite a bit less expensive

My tuner persuaded me to go with dual units as there is more control and less issues with linkages.

[montauk]

Originally Posted by SiracHaile

I agree with Winders the EFI Hardware actuator is the better solution and will save you headaches in the future. Reliable Bosch unit too.

I opted for a single unit with a combination of the linkage my Clewett ITB kit came with. Paired with the Toptunning 997 pedal and adapter bracket you have a working solution.

https://www.topperformancetuning.com/shop/p/911-dbw-997-pedal-and-mount-kit

I was planning to buy the toptuning pedal and throttle bodies with the built in throttle motors. I emailed the owner and he was very helpful but I wanted to see an older car like mine with his stuff installed along with an A/C compressor. So in the end, I went with PMO stuff.

The toptuning setup would have been a lot easier.

[montauk]

Originally Posted by winders

You really should look at the EFI Hardware DBW actuator I posted about earlier. It uses the same Bosch motor used all over the Industry and is packaged in a flexible way that will work in a lot of installations. Sometimes it is not cost effective to buy the “cheap” solution.

I can tell you from experience that you want the position sensors in the DBW actuator and not on the ITBs.

Thanks - I appreciate your help. The EFI hardware does look like it will be easier to mount. I'm planning on using what I learn on the 911 on my old Jag. The Jag has a ridiculous amount of parts from the pedal to the carbs. If there was ever a car that needed DBW, the jag is it. Two $1000 throttle motors versus two $250 throttle motors is significant.

One of the problems I have with these new products in the EFI market is that they might not exist tomorrow. Was it Rasant that bowed out not too long ago? They seemed well respected in the space. I guess the sale volume, $$$, just wasn't there. There's been quite a few small time product makers here on Pelican that have vanished too.

[winders]

The EFI Hardware actuators are under $800 shipped to the USA. You only need one if you do what SiracHaile did...unless you want to keep a spare on hand.

Rasant is back up and running under new management.

[Pork Chops]

I’ve just returned from EFI Hardware with my actuator. I’ve also bought one of these on recommendation from someone watching this thread https://www.topperformancetuning.com/shop/p/911-dbw-997-pedal-and-mount-kit

I’ve also got PMO TBs so we can work through this together. I’m currently working out how best to mount the actuator and have something mocked up in cardboard.

If anyone has the dimensions in the photo attached I’d be grateful.

[montauk]

Originally Posted by winders

The EFI Hardware actuators are under $800 shipped to the USA. You only need one if you do what SiracHaile did...unless you want to keep a spare on hand.

Rasant is back up and running under new management.

I need one for each car. It's an expensive habit.

[montauk]

Originally Posted by Pork Chops

I’ve just returned from EFI Hardware with my actuator. I’ve also bought one of these on recommendation from someone watching this thread https://www.topperformancetuning.com/shop/p/911-dbw-997-pedal-and-mount-kit

I’ve also got PMO TBs so we can work through this together. I’m currently working out how best to mount the actuator and have something mocked up in cardboard.

If anyone has the dimensions in the photo attached I’d be grateful.

Good luck. I hope you work faster than me and post a lot of photos.

I think my TPS problem has an easy answer. Haltech and others sell what seems to be a very robust sensor. It's contactless so it should last a long time. The CW rotation is used as one input and the CCW rotation is used for the other.

https://www.haltech.com/product/ht-010408-throttle-position-sensor-motorsport-contactless/

I believe it this product:

https://www.variohm.com/products/motorsports-sensors/rotary-position-sensors-for-motorsport/euro-xpd-d-shaft

[Mr Beau]

Any idea on how the EFI Hardware DBW solution compares to the OEM BMW one? I'm looking at converting an ITB setup to DBW.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/13627840537.htm

[montauk]

This is video by the garage time guy. He just ripped out his new PMO ITB setup because it was too leaky for his engine. He said he simply could not get it to idle so he switched to Kinsler. I'm wondering if his ITB's are just too big. It's hard to imagine that much leaking from a new set of PMO ITB's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPhB-Q1cKBI

[winders]

Originally Posted by montauk

This is video by the garage time guy. He just ripped out his new PMO ITB setup because it was too leaky for his engine. He said he simply could not get it to idle so he switched to Kinsler. I'm wondering if his ITB's are just too big. It's hard to imagine that much leaking from a new set of PMO ITB's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPhB-Q1cKBI

The PMO ITB setup is not great, that's for sure. I think the AT power ITBs are better than the Kinslers and a less expensive.

That "garage time guy" is not doing himself any favors by trying to do a non-standard cable throttle setup. But he seems to love making big mistakes....he made enough of them already.

[winders]

Originally Posted by Mr Beau

Any idea on how the EFI Hardware DBW solution compares to the OEM BMW one? I'm looking at converting an ITB setup to DBW.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/13627840537.htm

The EFI Hardware DBW actuator uses a Bosch motor used all over the Industry. They just put their own custom billet housing around it. The same Bosch motor is used in the C8 Corvette and a bunch of other GM and Ford products (and I am sure many other makes). It's equivalent, at worst, to that BMW unit.