Post your ITB Setup

[Classic 911]

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[sbrown.nw]

I paid $1000 (10 hours at $100) for Al to tune my car. It was delivered twice with a bad / incomplete tune. After getting the tune corrected by a dyno shop with a very good tech it appears the car was delivered with a malfunctioning temp sensor for the Megasquirt ECU. Does anyone know where this sensor would be for those that have Al's kits installed? Otherwise, I will have the tuning tech trace the wiring from the Megasquirt to the block. Hopefully it is an easy sensor replacement as it is needed for cold starts yet it was causing the tune to go randomly rich at warm operating temps. Both my mechanic and the lead tech at the dyno shop cannot believe the car was delivered with these issues.

Scott

Originally Posted by BLACK3.2

Why didn’t you have Al do your tune? He installed ITBs on my 964, and did the tune. It is almost perfect. I’m going back for adjustments eventually, but that’s expected with custom work. I recently took it to Cantrells for some exhaust work and they were so impressed with the tune they asked for Al’s contact info. There are a couple of ITB conversion cars in there tuned by other tuners with tip in and surging issues.

[jpgroth]

What temp sensor are you using? I have my car at a shop getting tuned now. I had an AEM oil temp sensor in the left cam cover as that’s what I’ve seen many others do around here and my car, ‘79 SC, did not come with a CHT. One of the first things that the shop pointed out was the inconsistent reading that the oil temp sensor and its location may give. From what they told me, it sounded like the sensor wasn’t seeing accurate temps and holding the car in warm up for much longer than needed. I had them instal a CHT on one of the heads fins per their recommendation. Might just be a preference of theirs with tuning but might make sense for a lot of set ups

[jpgroth]

Originally Posted by sbrown.nw

I paid $1000 (10 hours at $100) for Al to tune my car. It was delivered twice with a bad / incomplete tune. After getting the tune corrected by a dyno shop with a very good tech it appears the car was delivered with a malfunctioning temp sensor for the Megasquirt ECU. Does anyone know where this sensor would be for those that have Al's kits installed? Otherwise, I will have the tuning tech trace the wiring from the Megasquirt to the block. Hopefully it is an easy sensor replacement as it is needed for cold starts yet it was causing the tune to go randomly rich at warm operating temps. Both my mechanic and the lead tech at the dyno shop cannot believe the car was delivered with these issues.

Scott

Also, have you talked with Al about the issue? In all of my exchanges with him he has been a 110% stand up guy. That matches everything else I’ve seen on the forums until this post

[sbrown.nw]

Yes I have. Al is refusing to do any more work on my car after I identified and notified him of multiple issues after the second delivery of my car. I have never experienced anything like this before. I just want my car to start and run like it did before the upgrade.

Scott

Originally Posted by jpgroth

Also, have you talked with Al about the issue? In all of my exchanges with him he has been a 110% stand up guy. That matches everything else I’ve seen on the forums until this post

[shamrok]

Originally Posted by sbrown.nw

I just want my car to start and run like it did before the upgrade.

The EFI scene for these cars is growing and it's really not as complicated as some people want to believe. There are some variables to tackle for sure but nothing that can't be overcome. I DIY'd my EFI with zero experience and my car is running reliably after running down a few teething issues (also rebuilt top end at the same time).

Regarding your temp sensors, you should have an intake air temp (IAT) sensor and a cylinder head temp (CHT) sensor. The intake temp sensor is likely a GM part and threaded into one of the ITBs. The CHT (your likely culprit) is possibly a ring terminal thermistor that is using one of the upper valve cover studs or one of the oil lines to get a temp. Both are easy and cheap fixes if faulty.

Sorry to hear your experience regarding Al, he's always been helpful to me without me spending a dime with him.

[al lkosmal]

I don’t typically have to defend myself, my systems or my work and doing so on a forum is usually an exercise in finger-pointing………but I will keep this as short as possible.
It took me two tries, but eventually I provided a system/tune that met worked very well and….seemed to meet Scott’s requirements.
The 1st tune was running a bit too rich and seemed to rev limit at 5000 RPM in 1st…….too rich during cruise, etc. I suspect that I may have inadvertently loaded an earlier tune....as i had addressed those issues........

Scott provided me with a list of about 10 items that needed to be addressed..Most of the items were tune related and one item was related to a paint chip adjacent to the engine lid.
I spent a lot of time making sure that I addressed the points on Scott’s list.
I followed up with a leak-down test that showed the engine was healthy and took it out for a final run and video…..ran great. I often take these videos to have a record of the condition of the car/tune, prior to shipping
Here’s a link to the video……. Video is kind of long and boring…but the 911 ran great and the logs showed that the AFRs were decent too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIXcacSzjDM&t=7s

So, that was a wrap and Scott emailed me on 05/20:
Hi Al,

"Car made it back safely and took it for a drive. It is so much better than the first time I picked it up. Hand throttle worked as expected and was no problem. Idle was great an pulled hard up to redline without any breakup. I could not get on it too much as it was rush hour traffic in semi-back roads. I think I may have lost a little throttle response / torque in 2.5k RPM - 3.5 RPM takeoffs, but I am not totally sure. Might be interesting to do a dyno tuning session. Hopefully that can be done in a few hours with our carb rebuilders in Kirkland (Carb Connection). Speaking of which, did you make a backup copy of my current file?

Thanks again, it was fun, interesting and exciting to drive..."

Scott


My response:

Thu 5/20/2021 6:42 PM
Scott, Glad that you are happy with it....it definitely took some time. Torque doesn't come on until 3500 +....but you'll definitely need the dyno to refine that area. I did remember to make a copy for you..


Since that happy day Scott has contacted me regarding the rock chip……basically implying that I dropped and dragged something heavy over his fender causing scratches and it needed to be repainted/blended…..……… I guaranty that this never happened. However the chip may have.

I told Scott to get an estimate and I’d consider helping with that…….but in the back of my mind, an alarm bell went off as a simple chip escalated into much more.

In the pic below, the arrow is pointing to the chip…….



Next , a week or two later, Scott emailed me that his brake lights and backup lights weren’t working. My reply to this was that the EFI system just replaced the engine/control harness and did not get into the chassis or front/rear lighting harness(s) at all. Also, in general the wiring in this car is a mess, with clipped off wires, butt splices and even household electrical wire-nuts used on some connections. Pretty much par for the course for an early car that has been forward dated and has been implanted with a 3.2 back in the day. I don’t believe that this issue was related to the EFI install ….and don’t accept responsibility for the general lighting/wiring problems. …..More alarm bells were going off in my head……..and I told Scott that I would not work on it.

If there is a failed temp sensor on the system, I will provide a new one…….anyone that has dealt with me knows that……….

My take on this is……Scott is basically just not satisfied with the Dyno run …. ……….. The dyno tuner did a good job…..(he is supposed to find ways to improve the tune and he did) … ….…..and based on the dyno run data presented, it is performing better than the previous chipped configuration, pretty much throughout the range …..just not to the extent others have experienced. So it may be missing the bragging rights element.




I’ve never been to a dyno…I tune on the road, but often recommend that you go to a dyno to refine the tune and get the last percent. I never guaranty HP and TQ improvements, because there are other things involved besides the EFI kit……but I do refer to my customers dyno runs for reference as that is unbiased, 3rd party results. However, your results may vary……….

Anyway, the internet is a particularly poor way to communicate, but a particularly good way to injure someone’s reputation.

Regards,
al

[Nditiz1]

I can only say my interaction with Al has been professional. I think that the one complaining should take off the stuff he doesn't care to understand and go back to whatever engine setup he was running before. Furthermore, I think the expectation of a forward date basket case can be anything but subpar. I am planning to install one of Al's kits on my 2.7 and he offered his tune service which I respectfully declined because the engine was unknown and I needed to ensure it was up to par before I would even think about sending it to him.

[sbrown.nw]

Hi Al,

I don't want this to escalate. Overall, I am happy with my current dyno tune of the system. This Option 2 project resulted in a very slight upgrade in performance for torque and hp and 3 dyno runs prove that. I did expect more. With that said, the documented problems with my car after the delivery have nothing to do with my feelings about the upgrade. Let me address them specifically:

- I just inspected the yellow wire for the temp sensor and the fan shroud bolt was loose after you helped me out in your email reply. In fact, 4 others were loose also. Not sure how this happened but no one has touched a bolt in the engine bay since the car was delivered. I tightened it and the temp sensor is reading correctly in TS. Thank you.
- My mechanic addressed the brake and reverse lights last week. After investigation, he found 50% of the fuse box up front did not have power. He ran a jumper from the one side of the box to another and I have reverse and brake lights now. Obviously this was from the upgrade work as my fuse box and lights were working correctly before.
- The paint chip was not there when I dropped the car off for the install and it does not show in a video I took of the car running for the purpose of selling the factory intake system just before I dropped the car off. As for the closely located scratches, I do not remember them being there.

Scott

Originally Posted by al lkosmal

I don’t typically have to defend myself, my systems or my work and doing so on a forum is usually an exercise in finger-pointing………but I will keep this as short as possible.
It took me two tries, but eventually I provided a system/tune that met worked very well and….seemed to meet Scott’s requirements.
The 1st tune was running a bit too rich and seemed to rev limit at 5000 RPM in 1st…….too rich during cruise, etc. I suspect that I may have inadvertently loaded an earlier tune....as i had addressed those issues........

Scott provided me with a list of about 10 items that needed to be addressed..Most of the items were tune related and one item was related to a paint chip adjacent to the engine lid.
I spent a lot of time making sure that I addressed the points on Scott’s list.
I followed up with a leak-down test that showed the engine was healthy and took it out for a final run and video…..ran great. I often take these videos to have a record of the condition of the car/tune, prior to shipping
Here’s a link to the video……. Video is kind of long and boring…but the 911 ran great and the logs showed that the AFRs were decent too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIXcacSzjDM&t=7s

So, that was a wrap and Scott emailed me on 05/20:
Hi Al,

"Car made it back safely and took it for a drive. It is so much better than the first time I picked it up. Hand throttle worked as expected and was no problem. Idle was great an pulled hard up to redline without any breakup. I could not get on it too much as it was rush hour traffic in semi-back roads. I think I may have lost a little throttle response / torque in 2.5k RPM - 3.5 RPM takeoffs, but I am not totally sure. Might be interesting to do a dyno tuning session. Hopefully that can be done in a few hours with our carb rebuilders in Kirkland (Carb Connection). Speaking of which, did you make a backup copy of my current file?

Thanks again, it was fun, interesting and exciting to drive..."

Scott


My response:

Thu 5/20/2021 6:42 PM
Scott, Glad that you are happy with it....it definitely took some time. Torque doesn't come on until 3500 +....but you'll definitely need the dyno to refine that area. I did remember to make a copy for you..


Since that happy day Scott has contacted me regarding the rock chip……basically implying that I dropped and dragged something heavy over his fender causing scratches and it needed to be repainted/blended…..……… I guaranty that this never happened. However the chip may have.

I told Scott to get an estimate and I’d consider helping with that…….but in the back of my mind, an alarm bell went off as a simple chip escalated into much more.

In the pic below, the arrow is pointing to the chip…….



Next , a week or two later, Scott emailed me that his brake lights and backup lights weren’t working. My reply to this was that the EFI system just replaced the engine/control harness and did not get into the chassis or front/rear lighting harness(s) at all. Also, in general the wiring in this car is a mess, with clipped off wires, butt splices and even household electrical wire-nuts used on some connections. Pretty much par for the course for an early car that has been forward dated and has been implanted with a 3.2 back in the day. I don’t believe that this issue was related to the EFI install ….and don’t accept responsibility for the general lighting/wiring problems. …..More alarm bells were going off in my head……..and I told Scott that I would not work on it.

If there is a failed temp sensor on the system, I will provide a new one…….anyone that has dealt with me knows that……….

My take on this is……Scott is basically just not satisfied with the Dyno run …. ……….. The dyno tuner did a good job…..(he is supposed to find ways to improve the tune and he did) … ….…..and based on the dyno run data presented, it is performing better than the previous chipped configuration, pretty much throughout the range …..just not to the extent others have experienced. So it may be missing the bragging rights element.




I’ve never been to a dyno…I tune on the road, but often recommend that you go to a dyno to refine the tune and get the last percent. I never guaranty HP and TQ improvements, because there are other things involved besides the EFI kit……but I do refer to my customers dyno runs for reference as that is unbiased, 3rd party results. However, your results may vary……….

Anyway, the internet is a particularly poor way to communicate, but a particularly good way to injure someone’s reputation.

Regards,
al

[BLACK3.2]

Originally Posted by sbrown.nw

Hi Al,

I don't want this to escalate. Overall, I am happy with my current dyno tune of the system. This Option 2 project resulted in a very slight upgrade in performance for torque and hp and 3 dyno runs prove that. I did expect more. With that said, the documented problems with my car after the delivery have nothing to do with my feelings about the upgrade. Let me address them specifically:

- I just inspected the yellow wire for the temp sensor and the fan shroud bolt was lose after you helped me out in your email reply. In fact, 4 others were lose also. Not sure how this happened but no one has touched a bolt in the engine bay since the car was delivered. I tightened it and the temp sensor is reading correctly in TS. Thank you.
- My mechanic addressed the brake and reverse lights last week. After investigation, he found 50% of the fuse box up front did not have power. He ran a jumper from the one side of the box to another and I have reverse and brake lights now. Obviously this was from the upgrade work as my fuse box and lights were working correctly before.
- The paint chip was not there when I dropped the car off for the install and it does not show in a video I took of the car running for the purpose of selling the factory intake system just before I dropped the car off. As for the closely located scratches, I do not remember them being there.

Scott

Scott, I think you need to adjust how you think the process of customizing cars goes. The moment you cross the threshold into custom / hotrod, you just have to accept that you're going to be chasing knock on issues. I am still chasing exhaust issues, for example.

Al is as good as they get for keeping his clients informed and involved, but if you want turn key mods then you're going to have to open your wallet a lot wider into Singer territory.

[Nditiz1]

Wait so instead of fixing your fuse box the correct way you let your "mechanic" run an extra wire????

[Cheshire Cat]

Originally Posted by sbrown.nw

I got my dyno tune yesterday. Was excited to see the improvements of the final result, especially the drivability of the car as the VE table needed a lot of cleaning up, AFR needed a lot of tweaking and I had a temp sensor reading inconsistently which required a zero out of the table to stop a random rich condition. Green run is dyno with 3.2 factory intake and Steve Wong chip, red run is baseline for x-faktory kit, blue run is final tune and run for x-faktory kit. Was really hoping for 200+ max torque and 210+ max hp. Does anyone have any recommendations why I am not seeing these numbers? Also, it feels like I've lost a step over my previous setup with throttle response. Leak down numbers on my euro 3.2 are 3% or better.

Does that power curve shows the numbers on a flywheel or on wheels? If that's whp so you have your 210 hp

[Cheshire Cat]

Originally Posted by antares

Because that's all ya gonna get. Welcome to the Gold Card ITB Club. My advice is sell the ITB set-up to someone else ( who does not have access to a dyno ) who truly believes they too are gonna get 3.6 performance h.p. by throwing $ 6k into a 3.0 or 3.2. without first gutting the engine and spending another $ 10k on internals ... or purchase a 3.6 and put ITB's on that. The more volume of air the engine can take in per length of stroke or number of strokes in a given time frame the more fuel it can efficiently accommodate and the bigger the gains in h.p & torque. Changing nothing but a cam or method of fuel delivery will deliver about the same amount in gains.

I don`t remember anyone around here saying "go ITB`s, you`ll have all the power in the world". Good looks, to get rid of CIS and/or to have a good base for further mods to get more power.
ITB`s as it is hardly will give anything, probs just a bit. Which is fair enough.

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by Cheshire Cat

I don`t remember anyone around here saying "go ITB`s, you`ll have all the power in the world". Good looks, to get rid of CIS and/or to have a good base for further mods to get more power.
ITB`s as it is hardly will give anything, probs just a bit. Which is fair enough.

^^^^
THIS!

Well said.

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by merlinfe

Why ruin a pretty good thread with this? “Gold Card ITB Club”? Who cares how people spend their money? If you don’t like what you see, move on!

If you can’t say anything nice ( or at the very least constructive) don’t say anything at all.

What is the 'Gold Card' reference to? Is it an income/wealth thing? Or a derogatory term for a demographic?

I'm Australian so unfamiliar with the term.

[winders]

Originally Posted by sbrown.nw

Obviously this was from the upgrade work as my fuse box and lights were working correctly before

Ever heard the phrase "correlation does not imply causation"?

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by sbrown.nw

- My mechanic addressed the brake and reverse lights last week. After investigation, he found 50% of the fuse box up front did not have power. He ran a jumper from the one side of the box to another and I have reverse and brake lights now. Obviously this was from the upgrade work as my fuse box and lights were working correctly before.

This is laughable. So Al's ITB installation somehow messed up your fusebox and this "mechanic" added yet one more hack to your already clearly hacked up wiring and he's a hero...

[sbrown.nw]

Only at the wheel numbers matter, so my expectations of 210+ whp, 200+ wheel torque were not met.

Originally Posted by Cheshire Cat

Does that power curve shows the numbers on a flywheel or on wheels? If that's whp so you have your 210 hp

[sbrown.nw]

This is a temporary fix. I've learned a lot about this car and do not know it's entire history. When I bought it in 2007 the PPI did not say anything about bad or questionable wiring. I am trying to make it right / better incrementally each year I own it.

Scott

Originally Posted by GaryR

This is laughable. So Al's ITB installation somehow messed up your fusebox and this "mechanic" added yet one more hack to your already clearly hacked up wiring and he's a hero...

[Rodsrsr]

Al is one of the good guys. He once sent me a part I needed (on his dime) without even charging me shipping. He's as stand up as they come. No reason to bring this dispute onto a public forum IMO.