This is the same system that I'm looking to get for my 3.2.
How's it working out for you so far? Any issues to look for?

Thanks,

Also curious on the pro’s and cons versus stock 3.2 DME injection. Cold start? Altitude sensor, ect.

What about the charcoal canister? On the above image with the MFI intake that you installed, it doesn’t look like it’s installed?

Hi guys
I just finished my rebuild and ITB project.
I made a separate thread with a description.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/1075307-my-2-7l-rebuild-tuning-project.html#post11060367

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1602396564.jpg

I plan on going to add one of Al's EFI ITB kits to my crank up rebuilt euro 3.2 with fly cut heads and SSIs. Unfortunately, before I can I have to sell my set of Braid BZ RSR wheels (17' x 8" & 9") that were test fit only. Anyone interested?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/1073678-new-braid-bz-rsr-17-x-8-9-rims-correct-g-body-cars-big-discount-no-tax.html

Charcoal Canister
 

Josh,
The charcoal canister up front is connected. Pressurized through a fitting on the shroud and exhausts into the back (front?) of the MFI intake, just like it was designed.

I plan on going with one of Al's kits (Option 2, keeping the coil and firing from it using MSD for ignition and fuel control) early next year. What is the ongoing maintenance (tuning, parts, etc.) long term if I put about 3000 miles on the car every year?

I have one of Al's older kits with the Triumph throttle bodies, AEM ECU and Rasant wiring running COP ignition and it's been 99.8% maintenance free for the last 2ish years and quite a few thousand miles. Once it's dialed in, it's pretty much set it and forget. I've cleaned the air cleaners twice so far, but that's really it. Car starts pretty much like a modern day vehicle, even in cold temps (20s here in Philly at times). Can't recommend it enough.

I just checked with Al today about air filter choices for his kits that come with the rain hats. He said K&N filters are included in his kits (I'm going with his Option 2 Kit). Does anyone know of any paper air filter options that also fit?

TIA

paper filters that *can fit* the rain hats (in lieu of K&N filters)
wix 42088
ACDelco a178cw
ACDelco a178cwk
STP sa192
Fram ca192

*These filters require a few snips of the metal cage to allow them to be bent into an oval instead of a circle.

That's fantastic looking. Are there filters inside the screens on the manifold, or is it just the screens?i

Thanks Chris, great info. How many cuts and how far apart would you say? Make cuts on top and bottom? I like paper over K&N when possible.

No filters....what about the flapper valve?

I don't recall and I've got K&Ns in my car right now, so I can't go look.
Fortunately, they're cheap enough to experiment without much risk.
Best of luck getting sorted out.

This looks amazing! What are the benefits/drawbacks of having plenums like those compared to straight runners?

Note: The RHD ITBs that are in my kits are direct-to-head design and do not have the Weber-like manifolds that you find on PMO's etc, This means that the spacing of the ITBs matches the spacing of the head/intake ports, not the reduced spacing of the Weber/PMO design. That means that the rainhats for the RHDs are longer than the Weber/PMO rainhats and the filters are also larger....I.E. the rainhat filter options listed above are ok for the Weber/PMO, but not the RHDs. However, the K&N filter I use is a very standard K&N size. I can provide you with the part number if you want to try to find an alternative filter. There were no off the shelf oval filters that fit the larger size, so we're using a round filter that is easily formed to the oval shape. The K&N filters do this easily...very pliable. I can't say whether the paper filters will form as easily.

regards,
al

I know there are a lot of very positive experiences (fan boys might be too strong of a phrase here, hahaha) of their EFI ITB installs. Has anyone every first hand or second hand (through a friend's car, etc) every had a mediocre or negative experience?

The reason why I ask is because my 1985 3.2 euro engine has really woken up lately at the about 20k miles mark after a crank up rebuild, reusing the higher compression pistons, stronger chains and fly cutting the heads (cams and other major upgrades were not done). During the 20k miles period, I did the following:

- SSIs and Monty 2 in - 1 out muffler with appropriate 3.2 euro / SSI / sport muffler Steve Wong chip (no smog on my engine with euro spec, no O2 sensor either)
- larger K&N style air filter with a pre-existing aftermarket throttle body intake tube (before rebuild, like my lightweight seats, front and rear fiberglass bumpers and deck lid)

The car also has a factory euro 85 transmission and the car revs through 1st gear quite to very quickly. In comparison, I spoke to and sold some used RSR Rota Foxes to Dan McIntee in the northern WA area recently. His latest project was a turbo charged SC which is so quick through 1st gear that he deemed it basically useless and wanted to buy my 17" Rotas to put larger diameter tires compared to factory spec so the ratio would hopefully make the gearing more appropriate to the high hp turbo platform (usually we want to reduce the ration or the rim weight here). Now, I'm not thinking that an EFI ITB kit will give me performance like Dan's turbo SC where 1st gear is deemed useless because you have to shift so quickly after initial takeoff, but I am thinking about how much more an EFI ITB setup is going to get me if my car is pulling so strong in 1st (and the other gears, of course)? People have said 15%+ hp / torque with an almost instant and flat torque curve going to an EFI ITB setup. Do you think my engine has that much left in it? I have no plans to open up the transmission and change any gears. A factory or similar (geared for aggressive street) LSD would be something I might consider.

I would be quite disappointed if pre and post EFI ITB upgrade produced similar results if there was not much left to dig out of my engine performance capabilities. I hope I am wrong and I get numbers similar to Steve's car (I know his last dyno numbers set a new high bar for a standard 3.2).

FYI, I am running 215/45ZR17 and 245/40ZR17 tires on my current 7.5" & 9" x 17" RSR Rota Foxes, which matches the factory 16" tire ratios with Fuchs.

Would like to hear your thoughts and TIA,

Scott

Scott,

Good questions. If you’re already EFI you won’t see as drastic an improvement as the CIS guys have. It would all come down to the kit you choose and more importantly who tunes the car after. After a lot of dyno time and looking at logs for adjustments for the last horsepower, you may have more than what you have now, but not much more.

Stick with what you have and spend the money driving the car and having fun.

IMHO, respectfully.

-Steve

I mean, if you’re revving through the gears faster, that means your car is faster. I would interpret that as a successful mod! That’s a good problem to have to solve.

I'm pretty sure the AFM on Motronic has a barn-door style meter.
Assuming that's correct, replacing that with a MAF or ITBs will decrease inlet restriction and drive up power.

The real magic of ITBs is the throttle response. To my knowledge, there is no single TB system that has the snappy response of a multi-throttle intake system.

It's also worth noting that there are trade-offs.
In particular, tuning part-throttle and transients is much more complicated (and time-consuming) as much less throttle pedal input results in much more air in the engine relative to a single TB.
The difference in air volume consumed between 20% and 30% with a single TB is a lot.
With ITBs, the difference is much less.
These are functions of the increased throttle throat area when going to six throttles in lieu of one.

Clay - what material is on the firewall? And how is it holding up in use?

Exactly my point. 1st gear is still usable but from aggressive takeoff (not dropping the clutch) to redline happens very quickly as is before EFI ITB from Al. Not unusable (yet, ha) like Dan reported in his SC turbo upgrade. I'm going to do one of Al's kits because my car is kinda unique, want to make it more unique and I think it will make a difference. Plus he is an hour north of me and will be doing the installation, tune and overall will put a nice holiday package bow on his well prepared kits.

Thanks again for everyone's replies. Have a happy holidays, stay safe and be healthy.

Scott

My 964 is with Al right now having a Rasant ITB kit installed. We in the Seattle area are lucky he’s so close.

My car actually has a close ratio gearbox. We’ll see how it behaves with more power. I’m expecting it to be just more of what it currently is, which is a high revving canyon carver. Maybe a bit more mid range. If I’m rowing through the gears faster, well that’s the idea!

ITBs = Happy New Year......
 

More x-faktory RHD kits headed out........EFI = Happy New Year.....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1609307967.JPG

regards,
al

Al,

What ignition options do you find work best with MS2? I’d like something plug and play but I am willing to do wiring if necessary.

-Steve

Went through all the posts again in this thread. I noticed dyno posts from a lot of engines with 3.0 or lower displacements. Who has dyno graphs of 3.2 engines with EFI ITBs that they would like to share? Would be great to see a before / after graph (like Al's 3.0ss post) with no other mods. Additionally, if you have SSIs on your 3.2 I would like to see those graphs also.

Thank you very much everyone, I really appreciate it.

Scott

Steve,
Greetings. I typically mod my MS2s to fire an MSD Streetfire. You can use your stock distributor to continue to distribute the spark, but the ECU controls the fuel and spark timing. Next step up from that is a crankfire/EDIS system......both work vey well.

My kits are as complete as I can make them and provide a great price/performance value....but "Plug n Play" is a little misleading for anyone's systems. These are aimed at the DIY market and while they do come with wiring harnesses, etc....they require mechanical installation and electrical termination of the harnesses and final tuning.....and while the kits come with a good start-up tune file, fine tuning is required........some folks head to the dyno, but the majority do it themselves with very good results.

regards,
al

I got a baseline dyno run today. AFR dotted line is 12.8 and looks great on all 3 runs. I asked Steve Wong what the AFR drop is at 5k through 5.5k (update, Steve W said this was because of my SSIs). My run data also confirms that the SSIs are too small for the 3.2 at the top end but I like the "torque backpressure" effect they generate with the early and flat torque numbers at takeoff, which is exactly what I'm going for. I'm really hoping I can get noticeable increases in numbers like this with Al's Option 2 kit. Even better would be numbers close to stevesc_us after he went with a kit from Al on a 3.2 with SSIs.

Fingers crossed.

Scott

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1609373302.jpg

Are you all using factory recommended plugs with your EFI ITB setups? Currently, I have Bosch WR7DC installed after my mechanic did a tune up a 1.5 years ago. Is this plug too warm for my 3.2 euro compression engine as the factory plug listed is a WR4CC (still available from Bosch)? They also list a WR4DP0 but that is an $18 platinum plug. What are the NKG equivalents? Any recommendations? Will the WR4CC be too cold with 92 octane gas (I try to get ethanol free whenever possible) when I have Al do his EFI ITB Option 2 kit on my car?

TIA,

Scott

With the SSIs I had on the 3.0 and a Dansk sport muffler - 2 in/1 out.

Goal was mid and upper improvements. Turn3 worked their magic.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1610666999.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1610666999.jpg

Will retune this year - now with M&K 2 in/1 out with a GT3 style outlets that can be capped. The GT3 outlets is basically wide open and far too noisy. I will add some basic baffles to the 2 outlets this winter - test my metal fabrication skills.

Just asking, when selecting to use DIY Triumph throttle bodies the 97-98 come with a metal fuel rail and the newer come with a plastic fuel rail. Finding the 97-98 ones are hard to find but the new ones appear to be plentiful. So what, if I get the later plastic rail ITB's can I replace the plastic rails with metal after market rails easily and what source would fit ?

I found two sets of the t595 Daytona itbs on ebay for about $125 ea when I did mine. They came with metal fuel rails and injectors so thats what I used. I had enough details on the injectors to set them up in the Infinity 506 and dial in my VE map.
They are out there if you search.

Thanks ... So does the Triumph setup have adjustable throttle shaft rods/linkages at each body or does the shaft run straight through all three with just end adjustment capability ? I have read this gives one the ability for finer tweaking of each ITB for that cylinder's individual dynamics when dialing in the whole setup.

I admit to no knowing anything about converting MC ITB's (triumph or otherwise) for use other than their designed intention. But, if you can't adjust the balance in each throttle you are leaving far too much on the table in terms of drivability and performance. Reminds me of the Hargett ITBs we did beta testing with many years ago.

Not to discount at all the value or the efforts of those that have adapted throttles from other applications. In fact, I tip my hat to those that think outside the box. However, there are a few good choices of properly engineered applications that work quite well with our engines for not unreasonable amount of dollars.

All 6 are individually adjustable to balance air flow. Check out Clay.0's ITB thread where he details the method to balance the ITBs.

you want more?
 

Next EFI/ITB install queuing up......with another kit getting assembled
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613861001.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613861001.JPG

regards,
al

Going from Triumph ITBs
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613915254.jpg

To JSR Roller Barrel ITBs - yeah

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613915677.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat6.gif

Those MSD coils are oil filled and should not be mounted in that orientation. They are designed to be mounted upright with the connections up top. You need the black 8222 high vibration coil (encased in epoxy) which can be mounted in any orientation.

Here is what can happen with the red coils mounted like what we see in this car:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/246885-my-911-fire-burning-msd-coil.html

Or do I need to be a professional engine builder/coil installer with years and years of experience to point this out? That's seems to be the requirement around here these days.....

I don't think that's a requirement.

Not related to ITB's, but when I got my '75 it had an oil-filled Bosch coil mounted upside down as those are. I believe it came from the factory that way. I know it was oil-filled because it was leaking...