3.2 engine modification?

[OffCamber00]

I can tell you that a 3.6 swap is nowhere near the ballpark of a rebuilt 3.2 It used to be, but not anymore.

When i did my 3.2, in addition to the usual wear and tear items...i did the following:
964 cams
Upgraded head studs, rod bolts, valve springs, retainers
headers, sport muffler
custom chip

I also did some WYIT items like lightweight pressure plate, metallic puck clutch (track car), upgraded motor/trans mounts, etc.

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by gtc

Head studs. Rod bolts.
Everything else on a 3.2 is pretty strong.

Agree. Everything else is strong as hell. I boost the crap out of mine and never a problem.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by Trakrat

... I'm curious what you all recommend on upgrading?...

Your line of credit

[darrin]

since the newest 3.6 is now over 20 years old, it too will likely require a rebuild before install -- There are a few exhaust options to consider for a 3.2, including the 993 exhaust (with one flange flipped), rarely8's muffler setup and a more recent addition from germany that CAN run with cats. Each option's $$$ and (other than the new german option) will eliminate cats from the equation, making it not emission-legal.

[Trakrat]

Originally Posted by porschenut

Have you considered swapping in a 3.6 motor, preferably a vario from a 993 (approx 280 bhp)? Total cost including installation may be less than rebuilding the 3.2. And you can store the original engine.

Fortunately, the rebuild will cost less than buying an entirely new engine, as I'll be doing the teardown and reassembly myself.
Most of the cost will be with shipping the parts out to a machine shop to do the work.

Nonetheless, if I end up wanting to go with something bigger/better... then I'll sell the 911 and move into a 964 or 993.

[Trakrat]

Originally Posted by darrin

since the newest 3.6 is now over 20 years old, it too will likely require a rebuild before install -- There are a few exhaust options to consider for a 3.2, including the 993 exhaust (with one flange flipped), rarely8's muffler setup and a more recent addition from germany that CAN run with cats. Each option's $$$ and (other than the new german option) will eliminate cats from the equation, making it not emission-legal.

I'll be looking for a decent exhaust once I get the engine rebuilt.
I had purchased a Fabspeed RSR exhaust, which I have been using on the car.... but won't be keeping it, as their exhaust isn't designed for a 3.2 (and also had a bad experience with them and would rather not be reminded of it)

[Catorce]

Originally Posted by Trakrat

interesting... tell me more...
I'm guessing there is more to it than just dropping them in though...

You drop your motor. You remove the cam towers and heads. You take out your existing pistons and cylinders. You fit a set of max mortiz style pistons on new cylinders. You can use a set of 3.2 cylinders bored out and replated.

You attach the new pistons to the existing rods, slip on the new cylinders, bolt it all back together, bam....3.4

And your original P&C are intact and unmolested.

Research the 3.2 to a 3.4 build. Lots of info out there.

[picinkoff]

Originally Posted by Trakrat

You're the 3rd person to recommend them... definitely giving them a call!!!

You may also want to consider the following:

1) Supertec Performance head studs- they are far cheaper than raceware or arp. Henry has a really good product that's been tested on many race and street cars. He also has good support. No affiliation, just happy customer.

2) If you have Alusil cylinders, like I did, Ollies can tell you if they are still good, and hone them for you if necessary. Otherwise you can get them nikasil plated; You'll need new rings and maybe pistons if you do.
Or, for roughly the same money, you can get new Mahle p/c set.

My 2cents.

Paul

[hoss4659]

A couple of years ago I was somewhat in the same position. We were tuning an installation of Sal Carceller's MAF conversion on an '88 3.2 and as we got into it it became obvious that at 70k on the odo the valve guides were a bit sloppy. At that time Ollies had a 10 week backlog. Sal suggested Bob Farmer Automotive (800-213-6373) After some instructive conversations with Bob we sent him the heads for the valve job plus matching on the flow bench. Also used his custom ground 964-ish cams. A bunch of other stuff as noted by others--Supertec head studs, new rings, and the SSI headers.

The car is setup for touring, not track work. So low and mid range torque and right-on throttle response were primary aims. The high gas velocity resulting from the smaller diameter tube of the SSI headers worked to our advantage here. Not my choice if I was still young enough for the fun of track days. Hole shots are great fun! 911s are not supposed to step out like that.

[Trakrat]

Originally Posted by hoss4659

At that time Ollies had a 10 week backlog. Sal suggested Bob Farmer Automotive (800-213-6373) .

They still have a 10 week backlog... or more, as they mentioned that as race season ends, a lot of owners will be sending them their parts for maintenance over the winter months.
I'm not in any hurry though... as I have other projects that car needs done, and the engine being out that long will give me more time to do some other work.

Originally Posted by hoss4659

The car is setup for touring, not track work. So low and mid range torque and right-on throttle response were primary aims.

So what did you do to setup the car? I originally had planned on having more power at the top end... but after experiencing it, I realize that my driving style (and if I do auto-x) would require me to have low and mid range power.

[hoss4659]

Basically the sum of the changes enabled the engine to breathe better. Bob Farmer has a lot of experience with head flow work proven with dyno verification. The head flow work includes mods to the ports and I suspect some tweaks to the shape of the combustion chamber. Going to Sal Carceller's MAF FI takes the AFM's "barn door" out of the intake air flow. The stock AFM works on the measurement of air volume, the MAF measures air density. The SSI headers helped with good gas velocity in the low and mid range where I drive. And I suspect Farmer's cams were complimentary to the gas flow improvements. No changes to the CR or displacement.

[Trakrat]

OK... I'm looking at maybe going with the Euro spec for the 3.2
However, I'm confused as to the compression needed... (Wayne's book says Euro spec is 9.8:1, but our host says its 10.3:1) ???
I think I've narrowed it down to 2 different piston sets from our host... but the price difference is HUGE... maybe someone can tell me the difference???
Piston and Cylinder Set PS98010 - Mahle-Motorsports - PS98-010 | Pelican Parts

Piston / Cylinder Set 990174915 - Mahle - 99-0174-915 | Pelican Parts

[Trackrash]

The 9.8 to 1 set is the 3.4l conversion.

Is your motor apart? Basically it comes down to two things.

How much is your budget?

What do you want to end up with?

IF you have Mahle Nikasils that are in spec, put new rings in and call it a day. If not bore, replate, JE pistons. Or new P&C set if you want to stay stock and spend the money and stay completely original.

[darrin]

trakrat -- you linked to piston AND cylinder sets -- As trackrash indicated, if your pistons/cylinders are in good shape, re-ring and you're set. If you're looking to go with higher compression ration pistons but not bump displacement, there should be no reason to replace cylinders. If you want to go up to 3.4 liter (going from 95mm diameter pistons to 98mm diameter pistons), you'd need to get your cylinders bored and replated to accept the bigger pistons, but shouldn't need to replace the cylinders unless they're damaged

[KTL]

Euro spec for the 3.0L SC is 9.8:1. Euro spec for the 3.2L Carrera is 10.3:1

You'll also want your ECU corrected to reflect the Euro configuration. Note that the Euro cars have no catalytic converter and therefore no oxygen sensor.

[gtc]

Is piston to valve clearance more of a concern with the Euro motronic pistons? Not sure I've ever seen it discussed.

Pelican's price for those 98mm pistons and cylinders is way out of line. Pretty easy to find them for $1500 less elsewhere.
Also, the ARP hardware is significantly less expensive than Raceware, and even slightly less than Supertec.

[Trakrat]

Originally Posted by darrin

trakrat -- you linked to piston AND cylinder sets -- As trackrash indicated, if your pistons/cylinders are in good shape, re-ring and you're set. If you're looking to go with higher compression ration pistons but not bump displacement, there should be no reason to replace cylinders. If you want to go up to 3.4 liter (going from 95mm diameter pistons to 98mm diameter pistons), you'd need to get your cylinders bored and replated to accept the bigger pistons, but shouldn't need to replace the cylinders unless they're damaged

Stock compression is 9.5
Going to the European Pistons and Cylinders brings compression up to 10.3:1 (all things being equal).

I've been reading threads on here that some say you need to go with a twin plug if you go over 10:1 compression.

These European pistons and cylinders are 95mm. I'm not sure what the stock size is?

I guess my question is, with the increase in compression, I'm guessing the piston head is taller? I'm trying to figure out what adds to the compression... and wouldn't you need to make some changes to cams to keep the valves from hitting?

[KTL]

There's no issue with piston-to-valve clearance with the Euro spec. Heads and valves and rods abs compression distance of the pistons are the same as USA spec. Only difference between the two is the done volume of the pistons. Both USA spec and Euro spec are the same 95mm bore size

You don't need twin plug for Euro spec. Obviously the original 3.2 Euro cars are single plug. You just have to be diligent is making sure you use the best, highest octane pump gas available in your area