Testing Element fire extinguisher

[RSBob]

Looks like a retest is in order.

[safe]

Originally Posted by Element Fire

One interesting test that Karl did show in his video was the fire being put out behind the mesh. That scenario perfectly shows how you can point the gas from an Element through a cracked open hood or a grille to saturate an area before opening the hood to finish off a fire. This ‘pre saturation’ will greatly reduce the chance of a flare up when opening the hood because the gas (which is heavier than air) will block incoming oxygen from feeding the flames. Definitely a cool illustration.

That would work very good on a 911 engine fire as the engine bay is sealed at the bottom and have a large grill at the top.
Not sure how it would work if there was an oil/gas fire at the exhaust under the engine?

The 50-60 seconds of "burn time" was impressive I think, the normal 2kg dry powder last 10 seconds.
Karls test showed that it wasn't 100% residue free, but I think I would take that over the dry powder any day of the week...

Element Fire, what do you say about the residue? A typical result or was it due to being to close? Does it come of if taken care of right away?

[Element Fire]

Originally Posted by safe

That would work very good on a 911 engine fire as the engine bay is sealed at the bottom and have a large grill at the top.
Not sure how it would work if there was an oil/gas fire at the exhaust under the engine?

The 50-60 seconds of "burn time" was impressive I think, the normal 2kg dry powder last 10 seconds.
Karls test showed that it wasn't 100% residue free, but I think I would take that over the dry powder any day of the week...

Element Fire, what do you say about the residue? A typical result or was it due to being to close? Does it come of if taken care of right away?

Agreed. In a confined engine bay with all the nooks and crannies an Element extinguisher does very well. Being able to 'fill' the compartment with gas is the key to fighting the fire (again this technique holds true for CO2 or Halon/Halotron).

We quote a conservative number of 50 seconds of discharge time but over 60 is normal and there are variances from unit to unit as it is a chemical reaction that can be a little variable. The 66 seconds observed is normal and for sure looks good compared to our claimed amount.

Regarding the residue observed the amount varies from unit to unit that can go from nothing to a trace amount (as seen when pointing the unit at fresh clean parts not surrounded by fire). Interestingly the residue is not a product of the gas that comes out of the unit. The chemicals inside are contained in a cardboard tube and during discharge some of this cardboard gets expelled so what you are seeing is charred cardboard dust and is normally at its worse in the first few seconds of discharge.

You will also note that when first lit there is a flame that comes out of the tip of the unit. This flame quickly dies down after a few seconds but at the beginning is largest as the striking chemical on the tip is being consumed. During this window some of the chemical tip can fly out and if pointed at something clean like the aluminum can produce the result seen. Had the clean test been performed at the end then you should at worst gotten some of the cardboard dust previously mentioned and would wipe off. Again if you run a test whose only job is to find residue then some is possible. Our claim of 'no residue' is not intended to mislead anyone but is expected to be taken in the context of no residue compared to the many pounds of corrosive dust released by a powder extinguisher, or no residue in the scene of a fire.

I applaud Karl for his effort. This all started when our original video admittedly did a poor job of showing the product in action. Since then we have presented better examples that allow a customer to get a realistic feel for the capabilities of the product. Element is intended to be a small and maintenance free fire fighting option that is easy to carry and use. It is best for incipient fires allowing you to tackle them before they spread out of control. In fire protection you learn that there is not one perfect tool for every job but in Element we feel that we have a product that on a balance of factors is an attractive overall option for the general user and offers reliable fire fighting protection when other larger options are not practical or available.

[Marc Bixen]

Element fire: Thank you for your many responses. As we at Red Line have sold many Element extinguishers, it is great to see a manufacturer who takes the time to answer consumers questions and update the technical applications of there product. Most of my clients are purchasing multiple units. One for each car, and a couple for the house. I even had one client that purchased one for each German collector car, a couple for the house, and two for each on his British cars .

[Uwon]

HELP, HELP, FIRE, FIRE. Sorry, got to sit down and read the Element Instructions first. Not in my car.
This is not a product for the average joe in a panic to put out a car or house fire!
M2Cs
Johan

[Flojo]

This is what I use

[tdw28210]

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen

".....and two for each on his British cars". ].

I think you should recommend THREE for EACH British car. One for start-up, one for the drive and one for the tow.

Come to think of it...the Element Fire folks should probably do bulk discounts JUST for the owners of British cars with vintage Lucas wiring.

[Element Fire]

Originally Posted by tdw28210

I think you should recommend THREE for EACH British car. One for start-up, one for the drive and one for the tow.

Come to think of it...the Element Fire folks should probably do bulk discounts JUST for the owners of British cars with vintage Lucas wiring.

Funny You Porsche guys have it easy. Excellent engineering, robust electrics, and dry crankcases. When we play its in the world of Italian junk where a leak free car means its out of oil and where wires regularly change colors in the middle of the harness making tracing circuits a real treat.

[Trackrash]

Originally Posted by tdw28210

I think you should recommend THREE for EACH British car. One for start-up, one for the drive and one for the tow.

Come to think of it...the Element Fire folks should probably do bulk discounts JUST for the owners of British cars with vintage Lucas wiring.

I busted a gut reading this. FWIW, none of the British cars I owned, ever caught fire, although my Porsche did! And don't even get me started about Italian cars, as cute as they are.

At least the Brits used steel fuel lines.....

[Marc Bixen]

Originally Posted by Uwon

HELP, HELP, FIRE, FIRE. Sorry, got to sit down and read the Element Instructions first. Not in my car.
This is not a product for the average joe in a panic to put out a car or house fire!
M2Cs
Johan

M2Cs,
Remember, you didn't know how to use a standard fire bottle when you came out of the womb. This technique was learned also. Besides, you'd have to be some kind of.... to have emergency equipment available to you that you haven't been trained to use. Remember, they even show people how to use a seat belt when you get on a plane. Having the tools is only a small part of the equation, you need the basic knowledge to go with it.
My 2cents!

[Discseven]

Thanks for compliments. Much appreciated. Special thanks to Johan/"Uwon," Will/"OldSpool87" and Bruce for genuinely supporting the vid's making.

Am going to respond to comments & questions with subheads instead of copying posts.


Comparable test

Doing side-by-sides is indeed an excellent idea. This path was considered but I declined going this route due to the complexity involved at the time. If there's genuine interest on the part of multiple parties wanting to donate different extinguishers, and we agree on a test plan easily, I'd be involved to further our insight.

Engine fire

A 911 engine compartment is a different environment than the open pool fires as tested here. The "cave" of a 911 engine compartment would surly have some effect on the "relationship" of the fire to the manner in which an Element suppresses the energy of a fire in the "cave."

According to the test as I interpret it, a relatively "small" engine fire could easily be extinguished with an Element with the engine lid open and with a reasonably intelligent person operating the Element for the first time. A fire engulfing the engine compartment would---in my opinion---present too much energy for an Element in untrained/inexperienced and panic'd hands to extinguish... particularly with the engine lid open.

I'll speculate that discharging a good part or the entire content of an Element into the engine compartment BEFORE the engine lid is opened (through the air intake grill) is possibly the way to go for a 911 engine fire. Obviously this means "extinguishing in the blind"---surly an uncomfortable position to take (without prior experience.) The rationale: entombing the gas cloud would work better than opening the engine compartment---opening the lid immediately providing more oxygen to benefit the flames. Again, PURE speculation on my part.

Residue on aluminum

The sheet aluminum test surface received the most splatter residue of all compared surfaces. I believe this fact is nothing more than the luck of the draw in terms of the way the Element extinguisher worked in the test case. (Look closely during the vid and you'll see splatter accumulating on surfaces near the fires particularly during fires 2 and 3.) The sheet metal did etch quickly and given the fact that I did not attempt to clean the surface immediately, the residue hardened on the sheet aluminum and did not thin/remove with mineral spirits as was attempted many hours after the test.

Extinguishing technique

Comment was made by "Element Fire" (in the thread) that the technique used to extinguish the larger fire was incorrect---the extinguisher was too close to the flames and as such did not allow the cloud of Element gases to envelop the flames. I agree with this. Look at the vid---you'll notice there was a left-to-right breeze during the test and we moved left to right in an arc from one fire to the next. Look closely at the 2nd and 3rd fires... the Element gas cloud that proceeded the extinguisher (blown by the breeze) put these fires out in advance of the extinguisher itself arriving. Could we have done better using the Element's gas cloud to extinguish the larger/last fire? I think that's possible... but... the breeze at the time might have dispersed the gas cloud diminishing performance where this particular fire was concerned. (The large rag fire extinguished itself due to the fuel having burned out.) Bottom line, the environment of a given fire AND knowing how to use a given extinguisher are mutual factors relative to how well any extinguisher performs. Knowing what I know now, I would handle an Element differently compared to what was seen in the vid---I'd focus more on using the gas cloud compared to fanning the base of or the flames themselves.

For the most part, the pictogram illustrations on the product for user instruction are well done. They're clear and quick to understand. There is a failure in regard to instructions that tell a user how to interface with a fire when using the product---that failure being a lack of clarity in regard to using the gas cloud. Compliments to Element Fire for recognizing the need to improve Element's user instructions. (You could have been defensive or better still called me an idiot and you didn't Element Fire. Bravo!)

Comment that fuel was NOT blown out of the large fuel-pool'd fire and so spread by the extinguisher... that's correct. Whether a powder or gas extinguisher would blast pool'd fuel and so spread a fire by comparison... that I believe is a matter of how close any given extinguisher is to the fire source.

The "mesh test" did show Element's gas cloud extinguishing the fire before the Element extinguisher "arrived." For detail, this particular fire was from a 16 oz glass bowl with about half a cup of typical car fuel burning in it. (All fires were the same fuel with the exception of the rag being incorporated in fire #4.)

"No residue"

It's possible to conclude the manufacturer being somewhat reasonable when making a "no residue" claim when considering extinguishers that discharge volumes of powder or fluids. That said, and knowing marketing departments are paid to test the boundaries of fact & fiction, "minimal residue" would be closer to the reality witnessed. On an engine and if dealt with immediately, I believe the splatter would clean off, possibly with mineral spirits. On a porous surface such as fabric... how to clean and the results from cleaning are unknown. Clearly there is penetration of the splatter into porous surfaces.

While the splatter is easy to see, there's also a fine mist that settles. A strip of tape was placed on test surfaces to check for mist residue in particular. The aluminum sheet as looked at after the fire testing and after removing the strip of tape shows best what degree of mist had settled.

[proporsche]

Flojo ....i have the same in my 911 .Did you know it is actually patented in Czech Republic by Mr.Cervinka?

[Element Fire]

Karl thank you for providing your feedback to the various replies and for continuing to offer a neutral representation of both your observations and opinions. It is a refreshing change to the more forceful approach many people take when reviewing or evaluating a product.

Element is new to the consumer market but has been sold to military, police, and institutional customers outside of North America for over a decade. While we are convinced of the merits of the product, entering a consumer space holds very particular challenges and we are trying our very best to put forward an honest and realistic message so that customers can make informed purchasing decisions. I agree that we have room for improvement and have taken your feedback and the feedback of the group to heart to help us better present our product moving forwards.

Interestingly in the fire extinguisher world there are two big education hurdles:

1. Most people greatly over estimate the size of fire a given fire extinguisher can handle. Handheld extinguishers (regardless of type and size) are for dealing with small fires before they really take hold. Your window to get started fighting one of these fires is small and very quickly they reach the point where a professional fire fighter is needed. As such having an extinguisher that is easy to have close at hand and has a long discharge time is a huge head start in dealing with a fire. Regardless of what you choose to use an extinguisher MUST be easily accessible. In the case of a car that means within reach of the driver in the drivers compartment. In the trunk will waste too much time in an emergency.

2. All extinguishers have their shortcomings. One is really good on wood fires but useless on oil fires. One makes a huge corrosive mess, another is weak in windy conditions, while another cannot be used on electrical. There is no one perfect tool but on a balance of performance we are very excited to offer Element to the consumer market because it offers some real advantages over traditional extinguishers and will encourage many more people to carry an extinguisher who otherwise would not have bothered.

As an aside this past weekend we were at a hot rod show and a customer of ours came to us almost in tears to tell us that his Element saved his car last month. He had some side draft carburettors and one of them had a float needle stick which spit fire out of the throat and caught (of all things) the brake master on fire. Acting quickly he stopped, fired up his Element, and put the fire out with minimal collateral damage. Without it his car (which happened to be a family heirloom) was for sure a goner. As a car guy that was pretty awesome to hear.

[Uwon]

Karl, your PM inbox is full.
Johan

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by Uwon

Karl, your PM inbox is full.
Johan

My bad. Is corrected Johan

[H-viken]

Originally Posted by Element Fire

We are actually in discussions with the PCA right now to figure this out. Our certifications are European based and the North American ratings (like 10BC for instance) are not a straight conversion (think metric vs imperial bolt sizes). Once this gets sorted the approvals would be published by the PCA.

Any progress in regards to certification and approvals?

[H-viken]

Some additional info related to similar devices: https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumers_safety/safety_products/rapex/alerts/?event=viewProduct&reference=0632/06&lng=en

[proporsche]

interesting.......


ivan

[piscator]

Originally Posted by Flojo

This is what I use

Flojo, could you tell me which model BlazeCut this is?

The BlazeCut website shows four models, TV100FA, TV200FA, TV300FA, TV400FA. I gather that the higher the number the longer the tube and, hence, volume of extinguishing chemical. What the website sorely lacks is a chart or technical section indicating sizes and recommendations for specific applications.

This looks like a great product and you can purchase it directly on the U.S website. You'd think that if they're willing to sell you one, they might be a bit more helpful in the selection.

[Discseven]

Recently had the opportunity to use an Element on a 911 engine bay fuel fire.

The Element ignited first strike. Fire was out in roughly 4 seconds give or take a second. What benefits this extinguisher is the enclosed area of a 911 engine bay. This confines both the fire and the extinguishing agent of the Element.

Would I recommend this product as a 911 engine bay fire extinguisher? Absolutely. I say this based on my own experience. Am also NOT endorsed by Element. While my Element worked, I can of course not guarantee that every Element will perform as expected. That's a disclaimer and not negative commentary.

My only gripe is the manufacture's claim of there being "No Discharge." There is discharge albeit minimal and minimal is something.

Any engine bay (circa '80) with stock sound dampening material lining the bulkhead will find that melted material being the worst of an engine fire to deal with. That is provided the fire is extinguished quickly and so leaving wiring, rubber and paint in tact. That dampening material melts into an extremely sticky tar that drips down onto the engine. Repairing the fuel leak and cleaning up the melted sound dampening was the extent of my affair---thanks to getting to the fire + putting it out quickly.

One hopes to never have to use an extinguisher but it's a brilliant tool to have in hand when needed.