Please Help me get it started!

woodman · 05-04-2002, 10:16 PM

Dave, Wayne, or anyone...?

I'm a new '75 1.8L 914 owner, and i'm having a bit of trouble getting the car started. I've been scouring this site and all my books, and I just cant figure this out. Not to sound like I'm begging for help, but...

I've got a new battery, and when I turn the key to acess, everything goes on that should (as far as i can tell), but the headlight beams, and the fuel pump. I've got a few extra relays that I've swapped around on for the headlights as well as the engine comp. relay board (back 3 of 4 relay spots). I can't imagine that my whole lot of 8 relays are bad, though it's possible. I know the pump works, i can jump terminals 30 and 85 and 86 and 85 and the pump fires up (with the key off and on). As far as i know, i did check and clean all the ground connections, but since everything else works, maybe thats not the problem.

Oh and i did bypass the seat sensor, by cutting and connecting the two thick yellow wires.

Any thoughts? What else should i check? I really want to fire this bad boy up, I'm just not as mechanically experienced as I should be.

Thanks in advance!

Jim Smolka · 05-05-2002, 12:14 AM

Just to make sure I read your question correctly, does your starter turn the engine over?

Are you getting spark? (use and old spark plug to test)
Check your fuel pressure.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

I know the fuel pump will not run on the 1.8's without the starter turning. Different from the 1.7 and 2.0 D-jet.

What else can you say? Does it turn over at all ?

James

woodman · 05-05-2002, 07:24 AM

The starter does turn. From what I can see I get spark.

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

Something is odd if you can get the pump to run by jumpering anything on the relay board...

The 1.8's L-jet EFI uses the "double relay" that hangs off of the battery tray to run the ECU and the fuel pump. The relays on the relay board are not used (except for the one for the heater blower and possibly the one for the rear window defogger). You shouldn't be able to make the pump run by playing with the relay board.

Do you have L-jet EFI, with the air flow meter, on the motor?

The L-jet pump should run when the key is on and the fane in the air flow meter (the flap) is moved. You can move the flap by unbolting the meter from the air filter box and pushing the flap with a screwdriver.

--DD

woodman · 05:23 PM

I knew you'd be able to help me. Yes it has the AFC sensor, and sure enough, when i moved the armature and also flap inside with the key on, it fired up the fuel pump. I need to figure out why the pump won't engage with the key on. Might the fault lie in the relay? and is this the part to which you're referring?

Fuel Pump Relay, 914-4 1974-75 1.8L
(check old part no.)
071-906-059A $75.70

I presume that the pump gets turned on with the key being turned and that it turns off after a short period of time if the the starter is not engaged.

I see what you mean about the relays on the relay board. I may have been mislead by reading some of the posts that were not for my specific L-tronic model.

What next? And Thanks!!

Will98D · 05-05-2002, 05:22 PM

Sounds like most of it is working correctly. The pump should not start whenthe key is turned on, only whent the starter is cranked or the air flap is moved off of the 'zero' position. Check the wiring diagrams carefully and you will see that there are two paths for the fuel pump to run: one is via the air meter flap, the other is for starting only. On my '74 there's a yellow wire that runs from the "I/IV" terminals on the relay board to fire the fuel pump when the starter is engaged.

BTW, Dave... I think one of the round relays on my board (the third one) does make the fuel pump run. I'll have to look at the diagrams again.

tracer · tracer's Garage

The dual relay mounted under the battery is what picks to run the fuel pump, if you need a replacement go to any junk yard and find a VW bus, they have the same relay. I also asked and found a couple on this board and got one for $15 from another teener owner.

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

Will, if one of the round relays will make the fuel pump run on a properly-functioning 1.8 with L-jetronic FI, I will be very very surprised. I can see how it would if you jumpered one or two things, but it very definitely does not run the fuel pump under normal operation.

Woodman, I think that's the right thing, but I don't know for sure as I am away from my parts listings today.

--DD

woodman · 05-06-2002, 07:07 AM

Thanks guys for your help. I'll get back into it tonite after work. Keeping my fingers crossed.

woodman · 05-06-2002, 07:50 PM

OK! Got the tank in and all the pressure lines in. Fuel pump activates with the starter. So far so good. The car wouldn't start up so I checked one of the plugs, no fuel. Pulled the injectors while still connected to fuel rails, no fuel coming out of 3, dribbling out of one. Since the car sat for 5 years with a full tank, I'd feel safe to say that they are seriously clogged and need cleaning (can this be done adequately?) or replacement (cringe).

Is it likely that this is the case, and that their ok but the trigger point is shot? I think I have one, not sure though (75 1.8L L-tronic). I havent found anything to tell me what sort of elec reading I should get when I check the elec connection on each injector while trying to crank it over. Does anyone know?

Thanks again in advance, Pelican's online info has really made this a great learning experience.

WOODPIE · 05-06-2002, 08:25 PM

woodman,

"Got the tank in"? I reread your posts, but didn't see anything about you having pulled the fuel tank. If you did, and have it back in now, you might haved a crimped fuel line. I am only mentioning this because even though I have read about a zillion posts about being careful in this regard when replacing the tank, I pinched mine when reinstalling the tank a couple of weeks ago. There was plenty of new hose installed by a PO and when I pulled the tank out, it looked like a good installation, with the hoses running to the driver's side, then back to the middle to attach to the solid lines. I was just not careful enough when I put the tank back in. It's hard to do single-handed.

Anyway........you might want to check that. Sometimes it is the simple things that go wrong. Good luck, keep us posted.

Ed

woodman · 05-06-2002, 08:37 PM

Hey Ed,

That's definately a good tip. I took the tank out and had it blasted and recoated inside and out. The fuel was fouled and the inside was quite rusty. I was very careful when setting the lines under the tank. When I pulled the tank the first time, there was a line that was pinched between the tank and the body! It looked like it had been that way from the factory since very few parts had been replaced. Regardless of how long it was like that, it had run for sime time in that condition.

I guess since I'm still learning as I go, I try and take it slow and really think about what I'm doing and how it will work when I'm finished with the task at hand.

I have a bad feeling I'm going to have to plunk down on some new injectors tomorrow...

WOODPIE · 05-06-2002, 08:43 PM

woodman,

New injectors might be the answer, but really take your time to eliminate other possibilities before you pull out that wrench that is AKA your wallet.

Ed

Jim Smolka · 03:07 AM

If you have cleaned your tank, hopefully you replaced the high pressure line from the output of the fuel pump. Be sure to use high pressure fuel line available from PP.

Also, there should have been a fuel filter before the pump.

A bottle of Techtron goes a long way to clean the injectors.

To check the spray of the injectors, remove the injectors from each side of the motor. While a friend tries to start the car, you should be able to see the fuel squirt out in a nice pattern. Of course be careful with the gas. Also, a good time to replace the injector seals (PP).

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

L-jet does not have separate trigger points. Instead, it uses the ignition signal to tell the FI when to open up the injectors. That's what the "extra" wire going to the (-) terminal on the coil is for. (Points, tach, and FI are all connected there.)

--DD

jadams · 08:49 AM

Before you buy new injectors consider this. The one injector that is dribbling could be leaking, and none of them may be getting a signal to fire. Check the fuel pressure before you get too far into things. Another test to try would be to wire up +/- 12 volts to an injector and briefly operate the injector manually while watching the output. Be very careful if you do this (sparks and fuel outside of the motor = bad). This will verify your fuel and injector operation.

If your ignition points are crudy and you get no spark, you will also get no trigger as Dave mentioned - so no injector firing either.

I have a really good step-by-step troubleshooting guide for no-start. It is a factory publication for a Jaguar which also uses L-jet. If you are still having trouble I can scan it tonight when I get home.

woodman · 05-07-2002, 09:03 AM

I know that the fuel lines in the engine compartment are pressurized. I unscrewed one of the clamps on the fuel line and released pressure. I don't have a pressure guage, but I'll borrow one from a neighbor. I've confirmed that I have spark through the wires and a spare plug to the chassis.

How about putting a volt meter on the plug end that connects to the injector? Would I get 12v? I may try that 12v to the injector if i am sure no fuel vapor is evident and I make no sparks. Last resort though.

Jim Smolka · 05-07-2002, 09:21 AM

Woodman,

You might be able to see the 12V if you use an analog meter. The voltage is pulsed and duration is based on a bunch of factors. An analog meter should 'bounce' as the FI brain fires each injector.

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

There are some hefty resistors that go between the battery and the injectors. I think that they only see about 5V. The L-jet injectors always get power, and the ECU opens and closes them by supplying and then disconnecting a ground.

What you'd see on a meter is highly dependent on the particulars of that meter. An oscilliscope would probably show it better, but those are a bit more expensive...

--DD