Troubleshooting No-Start Issue

[frank]

I had it running a few times after re-installing the motor but now it will not turn-over.

1973 2.0 Dual Carb

Here are the current symptoms:

Headlights on, alternator light on, key turned to start: Headlights turn-off until I release the key, all other electronics stay on, starter does nothing.

Here is what I have confirmed / tested / cleaned:

The starter is new and has only been turned on about 4 times, but I bridged the posts to confirm it was still working and took it to get tested at my FLAPS to backup my findings. Both methods tested OK.

When the key is turned to START, the yellow wire to the starter gets 12.5 volts (or whatever the battery voltage happens to be.) Voltage is at 1.5 when the key is in ON position.

Removed and Cleaned with a wire brush: Battery posts, battery cables, transaxle cable and posts, my left thumb and index finger, gang of ground wires and post above relay board, pins / blades on relay board.

The ignition switch is new. I have had it for years but only installed it sometime in August and the car has only been started about 10 times since... probably less. I have another ignition switch that I purchased to replace the backup I used but I am not convinced yet that it's the switch. I am however going to investigate that possibility next.

The voltage regulator is new too.
Any thoughts?

[luskesq]

Did you reconnect the transmission ground strap after engine reinstall?

Keith

[frank]

Yep, cleaned the post and cable with a wire brush. The car started about 4 or 5 times and I drove it two of those times before parking it in my garage but hasn't started since.

[John Rogers]

Do you have one of the electrical kill switches installed? If so it can fail with notice. What is the voltage at the lug with the large wire from the battery when you try to crank it? Seems like enough voltage is at the yellow or ignition switch wire so have someone try to crank it while you measure voltage at the lug. You can also check the large wire from the battery for resistance and I forget what the spec is but they do degrade over time no matter what some say. It should be battery voltage.

[frank]

Well, I just got it started.

I do not have a kill-switch installed yet (It's in the master plan) but as part of this drivetrain re-installation I did install the Battery Cut-Off with Fuse. I had previously removed it to eliminate it from the equation but re-installed it after the car started. This go-around I just left it on as I was getting a good ground and reading from it.

I still don't know what the issue is and I imagine it is going to leave me stranded somewhere until I can definitively identify what is causing this random no-start issue.

Here is what I did since my last post:

1st Attempt:
Tested trigger-wire again for voltage. Passed
Charged the battery to 100%
Jumpered solenoid + to trigger post (removed yellow trigger wire first) - Starter kicked in - Passed
Tested that the starter is grounded:

Used multimeter from:

Solenoid to transaxle ground - Passed
Solenoid to transaxle body - Passed
Solenoid to starter body - Passed

Attempted to start - Failed

2nd Attempt:
Connected jumper cable to negative battery post and starter mounting bolt in engine bay.
Attempted to restart while wiggling key - Initially failed for a split second but then started. - Passed
I disconnected the jumper cable and tried again several times - Passed

I tested it again with the headlights on. They turn off when I turn the ignition to start and until the motor starts. Is this normal behavior? I believe it has always worked this way on my car.

So I am still stumped. I don't know why wiggling the key would work since the solenoid was getting 12+ volts at the trigger, the positive post was getting 12+ volts continuously, and the starter proved to be well grounded.

It is starting better now than ever but I know it's just a matter of time before it leaves me stranded as I really did not determine why it was failing. Perhaps I will pull the ignition switch to investigate further.

I was hoping it wouldn't start until I found something obvious.

Thank you everyone for the feedback.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Some faults don't really show well until you have a lot of current going through the circuit. I'd still check the condition of the wiring from the battery through the ignition switch to the starter. I'd also double-check the ground path from the starter to the battery, and also check the big fat wire from the battery to the starter.

--DD

[frank]

Well, as predicted, it left me stranded at my son's soccer game this afternoon.

I crawled under the car to jump the solenoid while my son sat in the driver's seat to gas it.

It's not running well in any case. Sometimes it wants to die and other times the idle is too high, and I "think: right after a full charge it runs like a new car. I'll have to confirm that it runs best after a full charge... I haven't proven this yet.

It feels like there may be some misfiring going on but I have not had the chance to dial in the carbs since the re-install because I have been having this no-start issue. I did manage to do the timing this afternoon.

I removed the starter switch and and took it apart to take a look at what is happening inside. There appeared to be some wear on both arms of the "Y" shaped conductor and a burn mark on the Starter contact.

I pulled the lock cylinder out of the lock assembly too. I cleaned and lubed all the metal parts and ended up installing a new ignition switch with no change in the No-Start.

To add insult to injury the right arm on the driver-side headlight broke and my headlight ended up cockeyed and stuck in the bucket. I managed to get it out of the bucket and stuffed a towel under the front to keep it from falling back into the well, and another behind it to keep it from bouncing. I don't know why it broke or how it could have gotten stuck. I am going to need to find a replacement. In the process I had a guy stop by to ask if I wanted to sell my car to his buddy that is looking for a pre-75 Yellow 2.0.

Dave, I will test the cables as you mentioned. Not sure how to check the wires aside from a visual inspection and confirming continuity. I had presumed I already tested these wires by confirming voltage readings. I will

[frank]

Here is what I tested today:

I ran a jumper cable from the positive battery post to the positive post on the solenoid and attempted to start - Failed

I removed the trigger cable and touched the trigger blade on the solenoid with the jumper cable running from the positive post on the battery - Failed - This may be the issue. Shouldn't the solenoid have been triggered and in turn triggered the starter motor?

The problem is intermittent so it is possible that when I took the starter in for testing it passed.

I tried it again with the ground cable to the body of the starter to ensure I have a good ground and the positive cable directly prom the battery to the trigger. - Failed

I'll remove the starter again and see if it still fails.

[frank]

I removed and tested the starter:

Negative battery post to starter body and mounting bolt, touched trigger on solenoid with the cable from the positive battery post. - Failed? the gear on the starter motor moved a little but didn't pop out. It moved about 1 or 2 mm, enough to take up the wiggle room in the gear shaft.

Positive battery post to positive solenoid post, negative battery post to starter body and mounting bolt. Bridged positive solenoid post to solenoid trigger - Failed

This is a brand new FLAPS starter with less than 10 starts on it.

[frank]

I gently transported the starter to my FLAPS to avoid freeing up whatever might have been causing it to fail. I told the guy at the FLAPS not to bounce as it was in a state of failure and I needed it testad as-is.

He hooked it up and started the test. IT kicked-in and tue starter gear popped out but it wasn't steady and there was a heavy vibration. It failed all three tests... don't recal what they all were but one of them was voltage.

So, I have a new starter that I am about to install. My guess is that it will start on the first try.

I am curious to know if my car damaged the starter. Perhaps too much voltage before I swapped the voltage regulator? I am not positive the starter was bad from the start. Could the battery have caused damage? I have a yellow top Optima which is over 5 years old.. I think I will have it tested.

[John Rogers]

I hope you have the correct type 4 starter as there are two versions. From what I remember they are called "long shaft" as for a bus and "short shaft" for the 914 models. Back in 2000 or so I bought a replacement starter for my 914 before we did the six conversion and got the bus starter by mistake and at an autocross the engine started but the gear did not disengage so as soon as I hit 6K in first gear the starter exploded and caused the engine to appear to lock up! Scared the hell out of me for sure.

Somewhere on the site here there are the dimensions on the gear and shaft so you can check. I might these backwards as it has been a few years.......

[frank]

John, I am pretty sure it's the right starter but I will look into the dimensions to be absolutely sure.

I installed the new starter and it kicks in every time now.

[frank]

Back to No-Start this morning. Argh!

[frank]

Here is an interesting reading that I cannot explain:

When the trigger wire is connected to the solenoid there is almost no voltage. If I disconnect the trigger wire and take a reading, i get 12.65 The battery was somewhere around 12.77

I cut off the trigger wire terminator and cut the wire back about 1/4 inch then re-terminated it. I tried wiggling the trigger on the post wire while attempting to start but there was no change.

The voltage is correct when the trigger wire is disconnected but almost no voltage when connected to the solenoid.

I think that I have at least narrowed it down to the trigger wire.

Any electrical gurus out there that can help me figure this one out?

I am tempted to remove and replace the trigger wire from the wiring harness between the relay board and the solenoid.

[John Rogers]

You might want to try a remote starter button that are fairly cheap at auto parts stores? I have one and it hooks between the battery + terminal and the yellow lug on the starter connections. This bypasses the whole key, wire, relay board, etc so if the starter works okay with one of these then you can start eliminating instead of throwing things at it. On my race car I eventually wired a starter button in the engine compartment so I could start the car BEFORE I climbed in over the roll cage and all that stuff as being an old guy it was hard to get in/out.

If you do this, make sure the shifter is in neutral and the wheels are blocked!

[frank]

I used a lead from the battery to the trigger which accomplished the same as a remote start. It proved that the trigger on the starter was working and led me to find the issue with the trigger wire. I have not yet ruled out an issue with the new aftermarket ignition switch. I am going to hotwire my car next to either prove the issue is in the trigger wire / trigger wire path or the ignition switch. I think I have narrowed the issue down to these two components.

I am going to also test the positive and ground battery cables another way with my multimeter

I think I will buy a remote starter to ease my troubleshooting pains. Good call John.

I need to determine why the trigger wire only fails when it is connected to the solenoid. I will start a new thread since this one may be too overwhelming to read through now.

On another note, I found a 944 at Pick N Pull from which I got some headlight pivots to replace the one that broke two nights ago. Way cheaper than the $18 to $35 ones being sold on eBay.

This BTW is the best resource I found for testing starting issues: Part 1 -Testing the Starter (on the car): Symptoms and Diagnosis.

[frank]

This issue was solved in a follow-on thread: "No-Start Issue - Part 2"

No-Start Issue - Part 2