Grip vs Longevity 2013: Help me sort the current batch of tire options

[Jack Olsen]

I'd like to take the tires in this list and resort them into two lists, one with the quickest-lap-time tire listed first, and one with the longest-lifespan tire listed first.

This is the idea:

1. 'Quickest tire'
2. 'Second Quickest tire'
3. 'Third Quickest tire'
4. 'Fourth Quickest tire'
...

and

1. 'Longest Lasting tire'
2. 'Second Longest Lasting tire'
3. 'Third Longest Lasting tire'
4. 'Fourth Longest Lasting tire'
...

This is the list (sorted alphabetically):

Advan A048
BFGoodrich G-Force R1
Hankook Ventus Z-214
Hoosier R6
Kumho Ecsta v710
Maxxis Victra RC-1
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup
Nitto NT01
Toyo Proxes RA1

Some of the hierarchy seems obvious. But some of these tires are new.

If there are other tires that should be added to the list, I'm interested in that, too.

I'm going to post it on a few different forums and then tally up the consensus.

[matt f]

Hi Jack.
My 74 has 15"rims so I don't have a lot of options.
The Hoosier R6 have excellent grip but poor longevity. 12-15 heat cycles is what I typically get out of a set. Heat cycles 3-10 seem to provide the best performance.

Matt

[Jack Olsen]

If you trust UTQG treadware ratings, then the two lists would look like this, more or less.

Lap time and grip:

Kumho Ecsta v710 (30)
BFGoodrich G-Force R1 (40)
Hankook Ventus Z-214 (40)
Hoosier R6 (40)
Advan A048 (60)
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (80)
Maxxis Victra RC-1 (100)
Nitto NT01 (100)
Toyo Proxes RA1 (100)

Long-lasting:

Toyo Proxes RA1 (100)
Nitto NT01 (100)
Maxxis Victra RC-1 (100)
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (80)
Advan A048 (60)
Hoosier R6 (40)
Hankook Ventus Z-214 (40)
BFGoodrich G-Force R1 (40)
Kumho Ecsta v710 (30)

Still, that doesn't seem entirely accurate.

[drl911]

Great thread idea!

I don't have enough personal horizontal data points to provide input, but obviously subscribed. FWIW, I love the Nitto NT01 for DE track weekends... good bang for the buck.

[phigreg]

Originally Posted by Jack Olsen

If you trust UTQG treadware ratings, then the two lists would look like this, more or less.

Lap time and grip:

Kumho Ecsta v710 (30)
BFGoodrich G-Force R1 (40)
Hankook Ventus Z-214 (40)
Hoosier R6 (40)
Advan A048 (60)
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (80)
Maxxis Victra RC-1 (100)
Nitto NT01 (100)
Toyo Proxes RA1 (100)

Long-lasting:

Toyo Proxes RA1 (100)
Nitto NT01 (100)
Maxxis Victra RC-1 (100)
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (80)
Advan A048 (60)
Hoosier R6 (40)
Hankook Ventus Z-214 (40)
BFGoodrich G-Force R1 (40)
Kumho Ecsta v710 (30)

Still, that doesn't seem entirely accurate.

The other missing variable would be cost/tire. If the RA1 lasted twice as long but cost twice as much, not sure what I would buy.
From My experience:

Long lasting Price in 275/40/17
NT01 $200 Online Tires
RA1 $233 Tire Rack
Z214 $204 "
v710 $299 "
R6 $318 "

Grip
V710
R6
Z214
RA1
NT01


R1 =$309 @ Tire Rack

Just a few more data points.

Greg

[Kroggers]

Great, this is what keeps me up at night - so look forward to the results.

I would also include the Toyo R888 to the list as this is used quite a lot (over here at least).

I did run my first racing season with the R888, and whilst I like them on my 911SC, I could not get them to work for me on the Boxster racing car. Last season and this season I have been running with the Michelin Pilot Spot Cup and really like them - but still wonder if the R888 would not give better grip if I could find the correct pressure etc for them to work on my Boxster?

[turborat]

Originally Posted by phigreg

The other missing variable would be cost/tire. If the RA1 lasted twice as long but cost twice as much, not sure what I would buy.
From My experience:

Long lasting Price in 275/40/17
NT01 $200 Online Tires
RA1 $233 Tire Rack
Z214 $204 "
v710 $299 "
R6 $318 "

Grip
V710
R6
Z214
RA1
NT01


R1 =$309 @ Tire Rack

Just a few more data points.

Greg

Another variable has to be vehicle wheelbase and track, weight, driving style and set-up. Regarding set-up.....each tire choice may require different camber settings.

I can get 4 or 5 weekends on my rear 275/40/17 RA-1 tires at 2,200 pound with wide body SC. A fellow track buddy will burn through a set of R1s in a weekend with his 2,500 pound narrow body G-50 Carrera with the same size rear tire.

[yemington]

I drive a 1970 911 with no flares or tail/wing. Love the kumho v710 but they start to go off after 9-10 heat cycles. RA-1 shaved within an inch of their lives are much harder to kill and nearly as fast.

Anyone have experience with the Toyo proxes RR?

[Cajundaddy]

An interesting exercise. Price is of course a factor and grip ratings reshuffle significantly at 10 HC, 20HC, 30HC, or if moisture is on the track. Tire longevity reshuffles a bit based on typical track temps so if you run summers in the southwest, your tire life shortens considerably and some tires suffer more than others.

List based on dry track SoCal experience in my car or the right seat in others cars.

Lap time and grip for the first 5 HC:

BFGoodrich G-Force R1 (40)
Hoosier R6 (40)
Kumho Ecsta v710 (30)
Hankook Ventus Z-214 (40)
Advan A048 (60)
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (80)
Nitto NT01 (100)
Toyo Proxes RA1 (100)
Maxxis Victra RC-1 (100) [No experience] *


Long-lasting usable grip:

Toyo Proxes RA1 (100)
Nitto NT01 (100)
Maxxis Victra RC-1 (100) [no experience] *
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (80)
Advan A048 (60)
Hankook Ventus Z-214 (40)
BFGoodrich G-Force R1 (40)
Kumho Ecsta v710 (30)
Hoosier R6 (40)

My standout tire values in category for American southwest track work:

100TW- NT-01 (reliable, predictable and long lasting)
40TW- Hankook Ventus Z-214 (although the cat is out of the bag on these and they are nearly unobtanium in popular sizes)

[333pg333]

...

[KTL]

Just my opinion but I think the Hankook Z214 is the best bang for your buck right now. Quite fast and long lasting. I had a set of C71 (medium) on my '79 widebody racecar and they were quick, consistent and I got a lot of legit heat cycles out of them- over 25, which is crazy.

I switched to the BFG R1(S) and was faster. How much faster I can't be sure of because I ran them for once race day (practice/warmup on stickers, qualify, race in hellish hot 40 min sprint) and then blowed up me engine.

But I have been told that the BFG is much like the Hoosier in that they are heat cycle limited.

[lateapex911]

Jack, consider adding the Dunlop Direzzas. Racing friends rave about them as a second tier street tire alternative.

In my quest for lap records and wins, I relied first on the Hankooks C51 and, as supplies became unreliable, I went with the old reliable: The Hoosier R6. On my RX-7 they were nearly interchangeable. I'd give the nod to the Hoosier for absolute speed, but I loved the Hankook contingency...in practice they were faster because i could use them for 3 or 4 cycles before I won another set. Hoosiers were not replaced as quickly because their contingency program was much less generous, so they were a tick slower as I ran them for more cycles.

Cycle-wise, if I were paying with my own money, I retired both to practice and track learning duties (or testing where the engine was the sessions focus) after 8 cycles or so.

In the SCCA IT ranks, only the Goodyear (no longer produced) could deliver the lap times of the R6. Hankooks could have owned a share of the market if they actually imported tires in greater numbers.
Kuhmo, BFG, Nitto and Toyo were all considered second tier.
I'm surprised to see the R6 not be picked top dog by many here.

[KTL]

Will agree with Jake that of all the tires mentioned, ultimate speed is pretty consistently the R6. Guys in our GTS group who run the DOT tire typically run the R6. The BFG has made some inroads on the R6 due to good speed and better contingency for us.

That said, in the neverending quest to win the $2 trophy, some guys in our 3 class have stepped up to the Hoosier radial slicks (non-DOT) by taking a considerable 1 point weight-to-power ratio increase. They are faster bar none. That kinda blows because the slicks are considerably more expensive than the DOTs- to the tune of about $100/tire. OUCH........ Tires are king.

[lateapex911]

Originally Posted by KTL

Will agree with Jake that of all the tires mentioned, ultimate speed is pretty consistently the R6. Guys in our GTS group who run the DOT tire typically run the R6. The BFG has made some inroads on the R6 due to good speed and better contingency for us.

That said, in the neverending quest to win the $2 trophy, some guys in our 3 class have stepped up to the Hoosier radial slicks (non-DOT) by taking a considerable 1 point weight-to-power ratio increase. They are faster bar none. That kinda blows because the slicks are considerably more expensive than the DOTs- to the tune of about $100/tire. OUCH........ Tires are king.

Yup. Thats one of the reasons I shied away from Porsche club racing. Too many guys more than willing to buy lap time. But to be fair, it's racing, so it comes with the breed. If the class is gains popularity, spending will increase, if you want your relative finishing position to remain constant.

There's a grassroots movement afoot in certain SCCA Improved Touring circles to run 200TW tires like the Rival or Direzza either within the existing classes for a separate 'trophy', OR, to give a weight break within the class to try and throw a bone to the guys who choose a 200TW tire.

IF you can run a 200TW tire that has the sweet spot in the heat cycles last until about cycle 24, the effective hit on your tire budget is massively reduced. you'll end up spending about 25-33% of what you're used to.

[KTL]

Agreed you can't regulate people's budget if the rules allow them to spend whatever they want to go fast. Spec tire does help with that in terms of cost but the tire makers get hurt and that drives up pricing of other brands when demand is low.

I think the TW rating thing is a false hope of letting people choose whatever tire they want to compete. The TW number is established by its wear relative to other tires made by the same manufacturer. So 200 TW tires of various brands aren't necessarily going to be all that equal and eventually everybody migrates to whatever 200 TW tire is fastest, no? Nonetheless, it's still going to be cheaper racing and level the field a bit which is not a bad thing.

[VFR750]

Having done a pretty good back to back at Lime Rock Park, I can clearly see the ranking of speed goes (40) vs. (100) vs. (200). I think a 1:02:xx is in me with the Hankooks.

Jack, I think Lime Rock is like Willow Springs in that it has a fairly high average speed, that rewards cornering grip. Having been a passenger at Willow I know it is much faster than LRP, but I can see the similarities in high momentum driving, and managing tire heat load. Especially on a humid 95F day... You'd probably see similar increment

Here is my data:

Lime Rock
1:03.16 - 911SC, 225/245-16 Hankook Ventus Z214 C51, 4/25/13 ~ after 17 Heat Cycles
1:03.70 - 911SC, 225/245-16 Worn/corded Toyo RA-1, 4/27/12
1:04.90 - 911SC, 205/225-16 Dunlop Star Spec Z1 2900#, 4/27/12

Watkins Glen
2:23.11 - 911SC, 225/245/16 Hankook Ventus Z214 C51 2012 ~6 heat cycles
2:25.28 - 911SC, 225/245/16 RA-1 2011, some visible tread.


The Dunlops are definitely wear resistant. I've been running them for a few years now, and tracked them in the wet and in the dry. They are definitely a value for the $$ conscious. But they are noticably slower.

I think the RA-1 are better rain tire though. I think the 911 can't get enough heat into the Dunlops in the rain, thus a lot of controlled sliding.

The RA-1 verses Hankook comparison is a little tougher. Clearly the Hankooks are a lot faster, but they are wearing out. I probably have 1-2 more track days before they cord. This is about half that of the RA-1s. The Hankooks were a lot cheaper, so it was a good trade. Maybe about even.

Just an observation: When running the Hankooks, I was pretty much with the other DE guys running 911SC/Carreras on Hoosiers. So they are probably close.

[lateapex911]

Originally Posted by VFR750

Having done a pretty good back to back at Lime Rock Park, I can clearly see the ranking of speed goes (40) vs. (100) vs. (200). I think a 1:02:xx is in me with the Hankooks.

Jack, I think Lime Rock is like Willow Springs in that it has a fairly high average speed, that rewards cornering grip. Having been a passenger at Willow I know it is much faster than LRP, but I can see the similarities in high momentum driving, and managing tire heat load. Especially on a humid 95F day... You'd probably see similar increment

Here is my data:

Lime Rock
1:03.16 - 911SC, 225/245-16 Hankook Ventus Z214 C51, 4/25/13 ~ after 17 Heat Cycles
1:03.70 - 911SC, 225/245-16 Worn/corded Toyo RA-1, 4/27/12
1:04.90 - 911SC, 205/225-16 Dunlop Star Spec Z1 2900#, 4/27/12

Watkins Glen
2:23.11 - 911SC, 225/245/16 Hankook Ventus Z214 C51 2012 ~6 heat cycles
2:25.28 - 911SC, 225/245/16 RA-1 2011, some visible tread.


The Dunlops are definitely wear resistant. I've been running them for a few years now, and tracked them in the wet and in the dry. They are definitely a value for the $$ conscious. But they are noticably slower.

I think the RA-1 are better rain tire though. I think the 911 can't get enough heat into the Dunlops in the rain, thus a lot of controlled sliding.

The RA-1 verses Hankook comparison is a little tougher. Clearly the Hankooks are a lot faster, but they are wearing out. I probably have 1-2 more track days before they cord. This is about half that of the RA-1s. The Hankooks were a lot cheaper, so it was a good trade. Maybe about even.

Just an observation: When running the Hankooks, I was pretty much with the other DE guys running 911SC/Carreras on Hoosiers. So they are probably close.

I've raced on the R6 hoosier and the Kook C51, and they are nearly interchangeable. Sliiiiight nod to the R6 for speed.

But, at 17 cycles, your Kooks are probably at least a half second off the pace. (Maybe a full second) (At LRP)

If you wanted to stay in the sweet spot of cycles, you'd be swapping tires more often, which negates the kooks lower cost. Or, you can cycle them out (or cord them), accepting the slower times, but enjoying the faster times as a bonus, and consider yourself ahead.

Now, if you are racing for position instead of tracking, then it is all about what the competition brings.....and the guy with more $$, or a kid not in college, or a more tolerant wife, ...wins, LOL

[JP911]

Originally Posted by yemington

Anyone have experience with the Toyo proxes RR?

Yup. Been running them all season in Spec Miata (NASA). The collective experience is that they are:

1. approximately 1.5-2 secs faster than shaved RA1s, but still about 1 second slower than Hoosier R6 (spec tire for SCCA Spec Miata)
2. cord before they heat cycle out (same as RA1s)
3. are very fickle regarding mounting position (you can read about this online, but you must mount them with the paint mark inboard)
4. are available in very few sizes

[yemington]

Originally Posted by JP911

Yup. Been running them all season in Spec Miata (NASA). The collective experience is that they are:

1. approximately 1.5-2 secs faster than shaved RA1s, but still about 1 second slower than Hoosier R6 (spec tire for SCCA Spec Miata)
2. cord before they heat cycle out (same as RA1s)
3. are very fickle regarding mounting position (you can read about this online, but you must mount them with the paint mark inboard)
4. are available in very few sizes

Thanks! This is good news. I like the Hankooks as cheaper and almost-as-good-as Kumhos but need a 225/50 15 (not 225/45). The RR's are mounted (correctly) and I'll give them a try in early September at TWS and report back. Glad to hear I they cord out before heat-cycles do them in.

[Plavan]

Just a footnote on the Toyo RR-
My Spec E30 friends are not liking the wear on them. They say they do not last long at all for a spec tire.