Ultimate 930 Dyno Thread!

[willtel]

[911st]

I like!

The factory C2 intercooler has always been one of my favorites.

Looks like full boost at 3500rpm and still making HP at 7k. Don't try that with a long stroke 3.3 running stock rods but the 3.0 dose it well.

Most 3.3 builds make about equal HP & TQ numbers. This one makes much more HP than TQ. It is in the cam.

[drmatera]

well, i'll raise this thread from the dead.

my latest dyno run

[911st]

Nice.

Stock cam, boost...?

[DailyDriven'88]

No printout but I dyno'd an '86 last week at a local PCA meeting that was held at a friend's shop. Dynojet dyno, car made 348hp and 350tq. This is a nice jump from about 315 hp and 320 tq from a different shop, but on a dynojet with a K27HFS, old borla exhaust, and a .8 spring. Current mods: 3.4L, B&B's, .9 spring, GT35R, custom 3" passenger side exit with straight thru muffler, Leask WUR, stock cams. It did go a bit lean after 5500 rpm, which is where I stopped it, but max power was already made.

[bernie930]

Made 394rwhp, 367rwtq on a dynapack. 3.3L stock rebuild with 964 cams, IA HF turbo, IA fuel head, UTCIS, Kokeln Intercooler. Not bad for CIS?
Mitch

[TimT]

Tuning a customers engine

:: R U D T N E R S * R A C I N G * G R O U P ::

[drmatera]

Originally Posted by 911st

Nice.

Stock cam, boost...?

stock engine
Carrera intake
EFI
K27 7200
B&B headers
open downpipe
1 bar
stacked stock intercoolers
19* total timing
10.5 a/f
93 octane

it picked up that 7 horsepower when i pulled fuel from 10.1 a/f to 10.5 a/f. going back next week to get the a/f dialed in

[Craig 930 RS]

438 RWHP 413 RWTQ, CIS twin plug, 2650 LBS

[Jonty]

k27 HFS, whipflash CIS, fabspeed headers and cat bypass , 964 NA profile cams, .9 bar

[drmatera]

damn i forgot to post up my lastest dyno numbers since switching to E85 fuel. Turbo seems maxed out as boost falls to 15-16psi at the end of the pull. I'm targeting 20psi but it only briefly sees that before dropping.

[911st]

You seem to have found the max power a K27-7200 can make (425chp). That is almost 10 more than I could get out of a max build 3.3 CIS at 12.2 AFR with a K27-7200, but my tests were on a load dyno. With a 1 bar EBC setting I had a hard time holding .9 bar at peak HP.

You should have a lot more HP available with a larger capacity turbo that is more efficient in your power range.

Stock cams?

Just a guess.

[drmatera]

yes, stock cams. I was going to start on my twin turbo upgrade but now i want to throw a bigger single on there to see what she'll do.

[911st]

It can be surprising how much HP cam be made through the stock cams, and ports.

I knew of one C2 that just ran a 60-1 Turbonetics turbo, with Borla straight through muffler that was all stock otherwise and made 390rwhp at 1.1 bar. Another friend with SC cams, flowed intake manifold but stock ports, and first generation HF that made 430rwhp on CIS.

If you can keep your boost up and with the increased turbo efficiency make 400# of TQ at 5500rpm, that would be 420rwhp.

I wonder how far you can go with your stock cams and custom double core IC before it starts costing you to much. Your EFI should help a bunch.

[drmatera]

My engine always seems to make more torque than HP. I'm sure the stock cams and small turbo contribute to that

I made 390# of torque on those last pulls, a few more *'s of timing down low and a bit less fuel would have gotten me over 400#'s. Yes the EFI is a great benefit for adding/removing fuel and timing exactly where I need to. I'm being told I should have run 25* total timing on the fuel i'm running, maybe i'll try that next time I hit the dyno. 400/400 would be a great pair of numbers.

I am curious to see how well my intercooler is doing so i picked up a Davtron Dual element Air temp gauge. I'm going to plumb it in this weekend to get a better idea of my "custom" intercooler's efficiency.

[BSF]

I'm currently on a search to see what turbo(s) and cam combination yields the best combination of low end and top end. My two inspection points are 3000rpm and 6000rpm, rwhp at each.

It seems that the twin-turbo cars (3.6L) can muster about 160-180rwhp at 3000rpm and yet still achieve 500rwhp at peak. Obviously there are people who make more power than that, but I haven't seen evidence of making more power while still beating 180rwhp (or awhp) at 3000.

The single-turbo cars (e.g. 3.3L) seem to be parked in the 100-130rwhp range at 3000rpm. Even the smallish factory turbos don't seem to break the 130hp mark at 3000, even with other mods like headers or cal tuning.

Does anyone see excpetions to these statements, and if so, what's the hardware recipe?

My car (3.6L TT) makes ~170rwhp at 3000 and 495rwhp at 6000, so I'm looking for ways to raise the bar... primarily at 3000 but without losing anything up top. I run a mild 12psi boost setting.

Thanks, -BSF.

[BSF]

Oh yeah, and a 997TT (twin VTG's) makes about 195awhp at 3000, so that's a data point too.

[911st]

The 993TT's can manage boost at the injection controller. Thus, they can run larger boost earlier for a flatter boost curve. On top of that the water cooled TT's also have variable cam timing that moves the efficiency island of the cam around for a flatter TQ curve.

A 930 cam is going to make its best power early, SC early to mid, C2 Mid, and a race cam mid to later in the rpm range.

Just playing with one's cam timing can move things around some. The SC makes power about 250rpm higher, and the C2 about 250rpm higher again. If one wanted to they could move the peak HP point to about 6100rpm with C2 cams. Making peak power at 5250 v 6100rpm can result in a 16% higher peak HP but at the expense of low end to some degree.

If one gets HP peak to be past 5220rpm a bit, then HP can start to be a higher value than TQ.

On a well built motor, different cams do not typically make more peak TQ. By moving the TQ range to a higher RPM, one makes more HP.

350 # of Torque at 5000, 5225, 5500 and 6500 rpm is 335, 350, and 368, 436hp.

One of the issues in doing this with a CIS motor is it exaggerates the need for fuel and larger components like ports & turbo sizes.

Sorry for the ramblings.

ps, power at 3000rpm on a turbo is more a function of turbo sizing and how fast boost builds.

[BSF]

My wastegates are still fully closed at 3000rpm so I don't think electronic boost control is in the picture in terms of boost/torque/power capacity at 3000rpm. I hear what you are saying about cams, thanks for that input. I guess I'm more interested in trying to find out if anyone has broken the 180hp barrier (@3000rpm) with an air cooled (non-variable-cam) engine, 3.6L or smaller. Thanks.

[911st]

At the crank or wheels?

That would take 313# of TQ at 3000rpm so is should be possible with right cams and a turbo that can make full boost by then.

This is a little bit out there and maybe a bit puffed but here is what the right cams, turbo, boost management by rpm can achieve. I think he runs something like 1.2 bar early on, 1 bar by 5000rpm and tapers to .8 or .7 by red line.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/453683-cis-monster.html#post4445202

Post # 70 above looks like 180@ 3000 probably at 1 bar. Add 10% for 1.2 bar.