r12s How many?

[ckcarr]

Originally Posted by Jozef Schumann

I see HP2 numbers - anything accurate on the r12s's out there, somewhere?

Well, I'm making an assumption that the numbers provided by Sofatester in post 34 are reasonably close, and just a "bit" larger.

Originally Posted by Sofatester

Besides: My "2,459" for the R1200S was wrong, I beg your pardon, the number is a bit larger, have to check out the exact number once again.

There is a thread out there on this board within the last 6 months somewhere that had a breakdown of imported U.S. r1200s bikes by color and number. But I have not been able to find it.

This reminds me also, for no reason, of the EWS threads. There's a thread with vin numbers somewhere of bikes that may just stop starting if you don't fix them.

[Deans BMW]

Nice jab r12s. Beautiful pic.

[jaytee]

Well??? Did anyone ever get good numbers for how many R12Ss were produced and how many were imported into the US?

[Jozef Schumann]

Originally Posted by jaytee

Well??? Did anyone ever get good numbers for how many R12Ss were produced and how many were imported into the US?

So far, Sofatester is the numerical benchmark:

"My "2,459" for the R1200S was wrong, I beg your pardon, the number is a bit larger, have to check out the exact number once again."

although, he did mention its only a bit and not a touch or smidgen larger. A bit can only mean 10 or less, where the latter are 5 and 3 or less respectively. At least that is what I'd gathered after about an hours worth of Paramahansa Yogananda reading.

I used to be undecisive, I'm not so sure anymore.

[shreddr]

Originally Posted by jaytee

Well??? Did anyone ever get good numbers for how many R12Ss were produced and how many were imported into the US?

if you need exact numbers, do a search here somebody posted it once before. if you want ballpark it's about 400 in the US and 2500 worldwide

[jaytee]

I've done the search... Several times, in fact, using different arguments and come up with nothing. Perhaps I'm an idiot (always possible) bit if anyone could find that thread or come up with more exact numbers that would be great!

JT

[Dr. Curve]

Curious here. How many HP2 Sport units as compared to how many R12S units........world wide. I think there are less of the HP2 units by at least 500...........and hope to know for sure when someone here finally gets to a solid source. More like ballpark figures of 2500 HP2 units as contrasted to 3500 R12S units in what I am thinking.

[ckcarr]

Here is the thread with the most "reliable" information. It ends up being traced back to another board, and then to Chicago BMW. I know, it's not reliable but it was the thread with the best information.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/506805-true-97-black-432-r1200s-us.html#post4971797

Originally Posted by yugi

There were 432 R1200S sold in US
97 black
105 yellow
96 silver
105 red/silver with Ohlins
29 red/silver without Ohlins
432 total

Or try this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/564910-r1200s-build-numbers.html

[Jozef Schumann]

ckcarr -
Appreciate your effort in finding this.

[ckcarr]

Well,

To be honest. BMW does not readily give up any numbers. These are probably not correct. If you want to do digging, go to WebBikeWorld and look up BMW annual and quarterly financial reports. There were some numbers there once that we found relating to the r1100s Something like a total of 80,000 over 10 years in the US, or maybe it was world wide... See, don't remember. But maybe buried in a financial report are statistics on the r1200s.

The real problem with the r1200s as has been said here many times, and must be correct as we are cited as experts on WebBikeWord, is/was a complete lack of patience on the part of BMW. The r1100s took years to develop a following. I bet fewer sold in 1998 than r1200s bikes did, but they adjusted price, colors, etc. Maybe the r1200s was too expensive to produce for them. Or a changed guard in management from the old days ...

[BoxerFanatic]

From someone's viewpoint from the outside (not a BMW employee, not a BMW owner yet)...

it seems like something changed for the 2008 model year choices, perhaps before that.

Not only did R1200S go away... (I imagine they thought the HP2 Sport could carry on, despite being MUCH, MUCH more expensive, and absolutely not pillion compatible, not just unfriendly to a passenger.)

The R1200ST did not continue, either. The only R-bikes left are ones that have been holding for a long while... GS, R, and RT, and they are the only ones that got the non-HP2 DOHC engine. Ones that they know they'll get static for if they disappear.

The K1200R-Sport was short as well, and K1300R didn't get imported after the update.

But then they decided to out-do the Japanese at their own game. S1000RR is an amazing achievement, don't get me wrong. But it barely seems like a BMW. Change the badge, and someone who isn't absolutely informed could be convinced that it is a Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda, or Suzuki.

Seems like a lot of the R&D budget, and other beans being counted, got directed toward that project, and the K1600 project, and not a whole lot is left over, once the K1300s get a bit.

Of Course the R1200GS is the one showing a water-cooled boxer. that is still the most popular boxer bike format. Hardly anyone buys Roadster R1200Rs, and RT is second fiddle to the K-bikes with more power for the weight.

It seems that the age-old BMW boxer twin format is being treated like yesterdays news, and just barely remains a hanger-on, as the focus has been shifting to inline-engined bikes, with the GS being the notable boxer bike that still garners attention.

[shreddr]

I see BMW's market strategy as quite smart now in retrospect. The trends are clear; hyper sport bikes swapped out on a regular basis, and touring beasts capable of going from anchorage to ushuaia without skipping a beat.

The R1100S woke up the sleepy stoic BMW enthusiast with an actually sporty machine capable of doing everything the previous airhead models did with more panache! It was a natural progression for BMW enthusiasts because if they would have launched the S1000RR back in 1999 they would have alienated the fold completely. The R1100S kept the enthusiasts happy and trendy (to the extent they wanted to be). The R1200S was the natural progression of the R1100S, but not necessarily of the BMW enthusiast. Getting previous airhead owners to trade up to a new R1100S was a simple bit of marketing, but getting R1100S owners to trade up to the R1200S was hard because it was a different consumer group. No longer was it a sport tourer, it was a sport bike that could tour as long as you were solo and wanted to drill holes in the body panels to mount up bags, A MAJOR DIVERSION from the core consumer. Then came the HP2S, the opportunity to capture the sportbike market enthusiasts. It wasn't about getting existing users though, it was about getting Ducatista to believe that sausage burners were as good as lasagna burners, but alas we know that result. So BMW did THE SMARTEST THING, they brought a gun to a gunfight, and met the Pacific rim manufacturers head on, and competed the way they do, with real race worthy bikes that are actually raced! The rest is history.

The R1200GSWC water buffalo (you know its gonna be called that!) is a natural progression of the megatourer market and should be quite successful, as most owners don't do much more than head to starbucks for a skinny latte, or take in a nice sunday drive when there aren't too many honeydews at home, and they will be happy to tell you how much smoother, quieter, environmentally friendly and powerful it is. Expect to see the water pumper in the RT as well, but I doubt it will go much beyond that.

Which leaves me in an interesting spot because I have purchased a piece of history, BMW's first failed attempt at a pure sport bike, but the windfall is that for the sport boxer enthusiast, it is pure nirvana! I don't expect BMW to ever launch a bike anywhere near this caliber again. You can see the HP-K1300S which is nothing more than a K1300S in carbon fiber clothing. There won't be an HP2SWC, ever! It wouldn't make sense, and given the fact they only sold 2500 HP2S machines in the span of 3 years worldwide it would surely lose money. All new serious sport bikes will be on the S1000RR platform, and high performance tourers will be K-bikes. Adventure guys will get a steady stream of new models and colors.

I will say this again, if you are a SPORT BOXER enthusiast, then get an HP2S while you can, because I am sorry to say, this the end of the line.

But I got one!

[Sofatester]

Originally Posted by shreddr

I see BMW's market strategy as quite smart now in retrospect..........

Outstanding !

Ehhhhhh.......... I mean your posting, not the BMW strategy.


I also fear they will be just keep on building two wheeled dumper trucks called "GS" or "RT".

My conclusion is only a bit different from yours:
I'm gonna buy a 2nd R1200S instead of a HP2S in addition to my existing R1200S.

[shreddr]

The R1200S and HP2S are similar, i guess it just depends in you want CF, billet parts and DOHC or not. I prefer the HP2S to the R12S I had, but its not a night and day difference.

Besides, Lars you have a woman who is interested in sharing your hobby, my wife just sees an expensive toy.

[BoxerFanatic]

I understand what shredder is saying about BMW's strategy, but it seems incomplete.

The thing is, while the riding experience might not be a night and day difference, the price tag is a significant difference, and carbon parts that are almost unobtainable by reports on this forum before... and it seems like the HP2 DOHC engine is not mechanically identical to the other GS/R/RT DOHC engines, although very close. I could be wrong about that...

When you can afford one, I can see why you have that take, but it is not an inexpensive option, even used. R12S was more in common with other R1200 bikes.

The failure of the strategy, is when they decided to let HP2 Sport succeed the R1200S, is that they didn't post a refreshed bike somewhere between the R1200R and the HP2 Sport.

They didn't fix the R1200ST into something truly attractive in that gap, as a 1200, or even DOHC successor to the R1100S, R1150RS, and other earlier air-head bikes in that segment.

RT is a big bike that doesn't shrink for a sunday ride by one's self, it is only a tourer, even if it is a good one.
GS is not a sport bike, it is a road/trail cross-over.
R is nice, but they don't move it beyond it's simple role. They don't have even so much as an R-Sport half-fairing for that bike, let alone R12S grade suspension and engine power.
And since the cancellation of the K12R-Sport, you can't even look across the BMW aisle and choose that anymore either.

Letting HP2S do it's thing would be fine, if there were an ST/RS otherwise. It is like all of the new R-bikes are on the target ring. Some too practical and not as sharp, others not practical enough and perhaps too sharp, but none of them are on the bulls-eye.

How absolutely difficult would it be to put R1100S bodywork and fuel tank onto a DOHC R1200R engine, with some R1200S suspension, frame, and forward sub-frame pieces to bridge the gap for the fixed fairing forward bodywork... And a modified R11S rear seat sub-frame to meet the R12S steel trellis frame points?

In my fantasy world, it would probably also wear the front face-panel of the K12R-Sport and headlight that it shares with R12S, between the R11S turn signal pods. Also, a custom front subframe to adapt it to Duolever, using an R12GS shorter paralever arm as the lower control arm, and a custom geometry-tuneable upper arm, and K12 steering head setup.

If BMW won't build it... maybe someone else can fabricate the pieces together from existing bikes. Seems like something the official BMW skunk-works could build pretty easily as an R1200RS to hit that bullseye in the middle of the R-bike lineup.

[Dr. Curve]

A water cooled S bike boxer twin is ALREADY in the works and will MORE THAN SATISFY the urges of us flat twin lovers when it gets here in a few years. I remain thrilled that I lived long enough to see, own, and ride, a HP2 however..........as it remains simply the strongest (cc to hp) air-cooled motorcycle engine ever built and presented to the public. BMW will always offer good things to those who wait.

[bradzdotcom]

BMW will always offer good things to those who wait...but you have to wait until BMW thinks something is a "good thing" and produces it at the right time. there's nothing wrong with that.

a couple of things about making motorcycles that most of us forget:

first: a dollar invested in making a motorcycle has a much smaller return than a dollar invested in making a car. i don't have numbers anymore but at one time Honda was making way more profit per dollar spent on cars than bikes. I'm surprised they bother banging out bikes at all, if it wasn't for history and heritage. they're probably worried that Soichiro will come back to haunt them again if they stop.
(sidebar: mr. honda always assured the car industry that he'd never make a pick-up truck or a convertible. after he was gone one of honda's biggest failures was the Del Sol, a permanently leaking semi-convertible. we don't even want to talk about the pick-up truck.)

second: for bmw specifically, there's that GS thing. if YOU had a pile of raw materials and felt it prudent and financially safe to increase production of something that's really popular, what would you make? Gerade-Strasse comes to mind...the german term for on/off road. GS for short.

in this country, nobody really needs (or fully utilizes) a motorcycle. for us, they're toys. given the whole economy and where a bike is on the discretionary income scenario, all the manufacturers have been moving slowly and carefully. just like the rest of us.

creating new bikes requires a few years of advance planning and many of the products that came down the pipeline (up until the past 18 months or so) were committed to and put into that pipeline before the economic endo was confirmed.
you just don't rip a new bike out of your butt in a year's time. A "new" bike is a 5 to 7 year project. rubbing out a re-model is at least a 2 year deal.

as the Doc mentioned, all the manufacturers are sitting on some really cool stuff. in many cases, they've slowed down the flow of the pipeline to make sure they survive. ('cept KTM, the energy-drink sponsored South Park of bike-dom).

it's possible that what you're seeing in the BMW line, and the others, is the result of things that happened a while back. if you compare what's been coming out recently, against offerings of just a few years gone by, i think you'll probably notice we're in somewhat of a flat spot.

don't expect the "flat spot" to surge forward suddenly either.
it looks like this particular industry rebound won't be fast or be backed by massive torque. we're in sort of a heavy BNG (bold new graphics) phase.
the timing is tricky, because if there's a rebound, you don't want to get caught with a year's worth of stacked up BNG in your supply chain.

on the bright side, i'm seeing hints that small manufacturing is gaining back ground, particularly the SMs who make the tools for the guys who make the big stuff.
that's always been a good sign that the industry is getting back up, knocking the dirt off their shoulders and working their way up to speed again.

another good thing: sometimes these manufacturers just can't stand to have their cool technology sitting on the "developed and ready to go" shelves, so they occasionally gush a bunch of it out due to lack of self-control.
i'm hoping the 2014 and '15 line-ups will be that way.

[slavenoid]

Forgot Brad, what a wordsmith you are! Very well put.

[bradzdotcom]

thanx, but i don't make up the words (well, okay, i've made up a few), but for the most part, i just take a bunch of words and re-arrange 'em.

the term "wordsmith" for me always conjures up somebody in a barn with an anvil and a really long set of tongs, pulling conjugated verbs out of a furnace to pound them with a sledge hammer until they're shaped into prepositions.

then again, my favorite color is bright, so whadda i know.

[shreddr]

yes wordsmith is much too strong WWF comes to mind Word Wrestling Federation!