New Harley - Page 3

Jeff Higgins · 08-03-2018, 02:26 PM

Some of you guys really should look into jobs at Harley Davidson. They could use folks like you, with your in-depth knowledge of the motorcycle market, your uncanny ability to understand and predict future market trends, and your amazing engineering expertise. Why, if they had folks like you on board, they just might be able to save their company from its impending doom and maybe even achieve a position of market dominance...

Oh wait - they already dominate the markets in which they have chosen to compete. Their 50% (+/- a percent or two) share of the worldwide heavyweight motorcycle market has been a reality for, oh, a couple of decades now. Yes, the entire motorcycle market is really hurting, but one company still manages to claim for itself about half of all new bike sales in the markets it pursues. That leaves the other 20 or 30 manufacturers scrapping for the other half of the market.

So, yeah - geez, Harley have absolutely no idea what they are doing. They need you guys. I'm sure they will pay you a fortune to save them from themselves, to ward off their impending doom. What are you waiting for? Hop to it!

The fact of the matter is that this represents an exciting new direction for Harley. A direction many of you armchair experts have been clamoring for for an awfully long time. Now that it looks like they are actually taking it, without anything more than one god damned picture to look at, you can't wait to tell all of us just what they should have done differently, how they are doomed to failure, and just how smart and handsome you are in comparison. You guys crack me up.

javadog · 08-03-2018, 03:41 PM

Well, tell us how much of a success the Buell was.

How about the V Rod?

I'm not knocking their efforts, just to be a knucklehead, I just don't see them having any more success with that pair of bikes than they did with those other two I just quoted. They have the strongest brand in motorcycling and haven't had much success deviating from it. Maybe they will in the future, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Chocaholic · 03:48 PM

Aannnnnnnnd there it is yet again. King Jeff of Harleyville has again gotten his feelings hurt because some guys on a car forum decided to discuss HD and not every comment met his illustrious scrutiny.

Ease up big fella. Don’t be so delicate. It’s a fun topic to debate and no one knows what the future holds. Including you. Opinions are like *******s...everyone has one and no two are the same. Get used to it and enjoy yourself. Sheesh.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-03-2018, 03:52 PM

I think Jeff was only talking about me. He did say "smart and handsome" after all.

But to Jeff's point, and to mine, history is littered with companies having absolute market dominance only to become memories.

Remember Lotus 1-2-3? 100% marketshare. Gone.

Cadillac would have gone the same way if they hadn't changed direction. They make great cars today.

Harley risks becoming Lotus 123 or blossoming into the new Cadillac.

Jeff Higgins · 08-03-2018, 03:56 PM

The Buell and the V-Rod were both massive compromises. Trying to sell a Sportster motored bike as a "sport bike" was a really bad joke. I wonder how well the Buell brand would have done had H-D held onto it after they came out with their proprietary water cooled, overhead cam, four valve motor. By all accounts it was an awesome motorcycle. Allas, H-D's then new CEO infamously said he saw no reason for as much as the very existence of sport bikes, and cut the brand. That idiot had never even ridden a motorcycle.

The V-Rod was an effort at having their cake and eating it too. They wanted a bike that would still appeal to the H-D faithful so, as such, the V-Rod was doomed from the start. The forward controls, the chopper-like rake, and all of that nonsense unfortunately hamstrung what could have been a very good motorcycle. I think the Street Rod variant will go down as its best incarnation but, alas, H-D chose not to properly fit it out with the necessary gear to be what it could have been - a very good sport-tourer.

This new direction is, thankfully, free of the constraints that led to those two infamous compromises. They are essentially saying to hell with H-D's traditional customer base and their expectations. They's driven Harley development for too long. Not that they are going to be forgotten, not by a long shot, but H-D are certainly going after an entirely new market segment without their misguided past need to pay homage to their current base. This is a big, bold gamble for them. I hope it works out.

Jeff Higgins · 08-03-2018, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Aannnnnnnnd there it is yet again. King Jeff of Harleyville has again gotten his feelings hurt because some guys on a car forum decided to discuss HD and not every comment met his illustrious scrutiny.

Ease up big fella. Don’t be so delicate. It’s a fun topic to debate and no one knows what the future holds. Including you. Opinions are like *******s...everyone has one and no two are the same. Get used to it and enjoy yourself. Sheesh.

Mike, you keep going to this same well. Show some imagination for once. Change it up a little next time. Your tired "poor wittle Jeffy is all butthurt" schtick does no more than paint you as some sort of sniveling little prick with his own far too delicate ego bruised. You'll note I said I was somewhat bemused by everyones' expert opinions, once again. You were clearly too triggered to pick up on the sarcastic tone of my post. All in good fun, for me anyway.

Maybe I keep striking the same nerve with you, I dunno. Maybe, like way too many guys, you feel as though your very brief experience with the brand qualifies you, and only you, as the grand poopah of the interwebs, expert on all things H-D. Maybe someone poking some light-hearted fun at your self-perceived "expertise" is more than you can take. If so, you have my apologies.

Jeff Higgins · 08-03-2018, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

I think Jeff was only talking about me. He did say "smart and handsome" after all.

But to Jeff's point, and to mine, history is littered with companies having absolute market dominance only to become memories.

Remember Lotus 1-2-3? 100% marketshare. Gone.

Cadillac would have gone the same way if they hadn't changed direction. They make great cars today.

Harley risks becoming Lotus 123 or blossoming into the new Cadillac.

Agreed, Shaun, absolutely. H-D has already teetered on the edge of the dustbin of history, more than once in their storied history. Hell, Porsche was there in the '90's. It can, and does, happen to the best of them.

I think we can all agree that H-D needs to do something or risk going down once again. And, unlike GM, they are not "too big to fail". Yes, they have relied upon government help in the past (in the form of tariffs, which they, to their credit, had the government end prior to the agreed upon date), but a full fledged bailout ain't gonna happen. Maybe another unfriendly takeover (can anyone spell "AMF"?). None of those options would be pretty or good for the long-term health of the company.

So, here we are - like i said, they are doing exactly what so many of you have said for so long is necessary for their survival. They are coming out with something entirely new, at least for them. I applaud them for that, and wish them well.

javadog · 08-03-2018, 04:24 PM

Harley has some hard choices to make. Take the engine, for instance. Do they design it to appeal to the traditional Harley buyer, or perhaps somebody that might be in the market for a Ducati?

Here's an article by Kevin Cameron that talks about the different directions they could go with their new series of engines:

https://www.cycleworld.com/closer-look-at-harley-davidsons-new-975-and-1250cc-v-twin

BeyGon · 08-03-2018, 04:24 PM

repeat post two.

Jeff Higgins · 08-03-2018, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by javadog

Harley has some hard choices to make. Take the engine, for instance. Do they design it to appeal to the traditional Harley buyer, or perhaps somebody that might be in the market for a Ducati?

Here's an article by Kevin Cameron that talks about the different directions they could go with their new series of engines:

https://www.cycleworld.com/closer-look-at-harley-davidsons-new-975-and-1250cc-v-twin

I like and respect Kevin Cameron a great deal. I have to say, however, that his idea that H-D engineers might remain within their old tried-and-true parameters of their current air-cooled V-Twins is probably slightly off base. Granted, I would not expect to see Ducati Panigale levels of specific output from anything H-D makes, but they are certainly not going to restrict themselves to the piston speeds and cylinder pressures to which they are limited on their current motors.

Like many of us keep saying, "we'll see". We only have a photo at this point. I have to think, though, that to be competitive in the market that at least style-wise it looks like they are after, they are going to have to offer at least BMW twin, or V-Strom, levels of performance. Not Panigale, not Super Duke, not that race bike, cutting edge level, but something respectable in maybe the new Ducati Super Sport and Triumph Thruxton range.

javadog · 08-03-2018, 04:42 PM

I agree, if they tuned it like a traditional Harley engine, they'd just have another Buell on their hands. I'm not sure that they could go after a Ducati buyer, as those good guys tend to be pretty tribal. Should they appeal to a Japanese sport bike buyer? The bike looks too heavy for that, but who knows?

It's going to be a difficult choice to make, I hope they do their homework well.

Chocaholic · 04:52 PM

No, I just get tired of you belittling everyone on every thread that mentions HD. I’ve only owned 6 over the years so clearly my opinion is worthless compared to yours. Re-read your post #47. You insult all of us for having an interesting discussion. I see that my comments have softened your self-righteousness as evidenced in your subsequent posts.

At least you’re consistent. We can always count on a barrage of insults if anyone’s comments differ from your own. I tend to believe they’re fighting a losing battle. A shame really. The modern market has little patience for heritage over innovation. You are free to disagree but please keep your insults to yourself.

Jeff Higgins · 08-03-2018, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

No, I just get tired of you belittling everyone on every thread that mentions HD. I’ve only owned 6 over the years so clearly my opinion is worthless compared to yours. Re-read your post #47. You insult all of us for having an interesting discussion. I see that my comments have softened your self-righteousness as evidenced in your subsequent posts.

At least you’re consistent. We can always count on a barrage of insults if anyone’s comments differ from your own. I tend to believe they’re fighting a losing battle. A shame really. The modern market has little patience for heritage over innovation. You are free to disagree but please keep your insults to yourself.

Mike, I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure you are the only guy on here that sees that post as some sort of a "barrage of insults". You really need to take your own advice and lighten up a little bit. I mean, come on - if you took that clearly tongue-in-cheek call to "join the team" as insulting, then you are obviously far too easily triggered. Go find your safe place and chill. Maybe have a beer or something.

Chocaholic · 08-03-2018, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

They could use folks like you, with your in-depth knowledge of the motorcycle market, your uncanny ability to understand and predict future market trends, and your amazing engineering expertise. Why, if they had folks like you on board, they just might be able to save their company from its impending doom and maybe even achieve a position of market dominance...

So, yeah - geez, Harley have absolutely no idea what they are doing. They need you guys. I'm sure they will pay you a fortune to save them from themselves, to ward off their impending doom. What are you waiting for? Hop to it!

...you can't wait to tell all of us just what they should have done differently, how they are doomed to failure, and just how smart and handsome you are in comparison. You guys crack me up.

Was a pretty good, open exchange of thoughts...then this light hearted, jovial rant from our resident opinion monitor. Quoted for posterity.

Jeff Higgins · 08-03-2018, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

Was a pretty good, open exchange of thoughts...then this light hearted, jovial rant from our resident opinion monitor. Quoted for posterity.

Umm... it still is, Mike... at least for the rest of us.

HardDrive · 08-03-2018, 07:32 PM

I would ride that all day. Nice bike too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

There's a reason market research companies are hired to do focus group testing.

Sand and snow bikes are selling well to millennials. I see them all the time on streets and roads.

LakeCleElum · 08-03-2018, 07:50 PM

Doesn't matter which brand, all are looking at a declining market.......The younger generation just wants to sit around an stare at their Devices........There is not a good APP for riding a motorcycle.....Same reason fraternal clubs are folding.

Looking at a world wide market, there is a need for cheap, efficient transportation. If I was in the Board room, the nod would go to Electric and small gas-powered scooters.......Look around in Europe, Asia and elsewhere.........

Retro Nortons, Bonnevilles, Indians, HD, etc will only sell to a very few of us old *arts still able to ride something other than a Trike........

Jeff Higgins · 08-03-2018, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

Doesn't matter which brand, all are looking at a declining market.......The younger generation just wants to sit around an stare at their Devices........There is not a good APP for riding a motorcycle.....Same reason fraternal clubs are folding.

Yup. I feel very lucky that my two boys grew up to be the Porsche enthusiasts they are. One is now 30, the other 27, and both have friends who don't even drive. No interest. Most that do drive use it as an appliance, with no passion for it whatsoever. They do have a couple of buddies that are really into it, but all assure me they are somewhat unique. And I believe them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

Looking at a world wide market, there is a need for cheap, efficient transportation. If I was in the Board room, the nod would go to Electric and small gas-powered scooters.......Look around in Europe, Asia and elsewhere.........

Have you seen the diesel Royal Enfield? Kind of cool in its own way, but so god damn slow and utilitarian that all it could ever be to anyone is the most basic of transportation. I think they brag up that it will go 600 miles on a fill.

Of course, there is the Harley Livewire. Again, a for-real bike slated for production. Big, big step for a major manufacturer. But, then again, knowing Harley, it will be a six volt with a really dim headlight. And they'll find a way to make it leak something. And it sure as hell won't be "cheap transportation".

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeCleElum

Retro Nortons, Bonnevilles, Indians, HD, etc will only sell to a very few of us old *arts still able to ride something other than a Trike........

Retro is mostly only cool if you lived through whatever it is when it wasn't. It's hard to sell 70 year old nostalgia to a guy who is only 30 years old. Granted, there is some appeal, some market with the hipsters - I see it at our local Backfire Moto and other bike gatherings. The guys I see, though, would never be looking to buy that kind of "cool" off the shelf. They build it. That's what makes it actually cool, instead of poseur "cool". We can tell the difference...

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-04-2018, 04:26 AM

Custom 1250. I could see buying one of these. Looks fantastic and easy to ride.

Livewire. Looks great, whoever thought of going electric at Harley should get a raise.

From the Harley site, artist's rendering of another forthcoming electric. I would buy one of these in a flash. Gas or electric.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-04-2018, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Agreed, Shaun, absolutely. H-D has already teetered on the edge of the dustbin of history, more than once in their storied history. Hell, Porsche was there in the '90's. It can, and does, happen to the best of them.

I think we can all agree that H-D needs to do something or risk going down once again. And, unlike GM, they are not "too big to fail". Yes, they have relied upon government help in the past (in the form of tariffs, which they, to their credit, had the government end prior to the agreed upon date), but a full fledged bailout ain't gonna happen. Maybe another unfriendly takeover (can anyone spell "AMF"?). None of those options would be pretty or good for the long-term health of the company.

So, here we are - like i said, they are doing exactly what so many of you have said for so long is necessary for their survival. They are coming out with something entirely new, at least for them. I applaud them for that, and wish them well.

Well put.