What should consequences be for those that decline the vax?

[speeder]

She should be shot in the neck.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by speeder

She should be shot in the neck.

Fine. I will give you that one if you get rid of Kamala.*

*Special note to the United States Secret Service. This is sarcasm.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

And the virtue signaling is right there when you said:

Don't worry about everyone else. They are grown adults who live in a supposedly free country and have the right to make their own choices. If you want to legislate restriction 'for people you don't consider reasonable because they don't agree with you, then I propose we mandate that we outlaw the sale of tobacco. No reasonable person would want to ingest something so massively addictive and proven devastating to your health. That's just common sense. Alcohol is not far behind that in danger.

Please hear what I am NOT saying. I am not saying the vaccine is good or bad. That is for every adult to decide.

I am saying that mandating the vaccine "for your own good" is bad.

You have a very odd debate style.

You posted very specific questions that i answered.

Your 1st question had nothing to do with should it be mandatory or any personal choice / freedom issues your response up there is a total non sequitur.

And no, i have never seen a hospitals capacity been stretched by patients with smoking related illnesses. Have you? While they do require services do they burden care facilities to the point that elective surgeries get cancelled and every other illness takes a back seat. You are not really trying to seriously equate the two are you?

FWIW, Austin went stage 5 three days ago. As of today only 6 available ICU beds. That’s not because of smokers.

And again, virtue signaling is not one acknowledging what’s plainly obvious. Getting ones panties in a twist over a vaccine that one chooses not to get because of “freedom” is virtue signaling.

[daepp]

What an incredibly lame poll. Where is the "Do nothing/Live and Let Live" choice?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

You have a very odd debate style.

You posted very specific questions that i answered.

Your 1st question had nothing to do with should it be mandatory or any personal choice / freedom issues your response up there is a total non sequitur.

And no, i have never seen a hospitals capacity been stretched by patients with smoking related illnesses. Have you? While they do require services do they burden care facilities to the point that elective surgeries get cancelled and every other illness takes a back seat. You are not really trying to seriously equate the two are you?

FWIW, Austin went stage 5 three days ago. As of today only 6 available ICU beds. That’s not because of smokers.

And again, virtue signaling is not one acknowledging what’s plainly obvious. Getting ones panties in a twist over a vaccine that one chooses not to get because of “freedom” is virtue signaling.

If there are 5 empty ICU beds after allowing hordes of unvaccinated and infected pour across the nearby border...that sounds like good news to me.

[daepp]

How many alcohol related deaths are there each year.

Drunk driving deaths?
Alcohol fueled domestic violence deaths?
Accidental falls, etc?
Cirrhosis deaths and liver cancer death?
Alcohol related hypertension deaths?
Alcohol related heart disease?
Death from stroke?
Death from mouth, throat, esophagus disease?

And how many alcohol related mental health problems, including depression and anxiety, social problems, including family problems, job-related problems, and how much unemployment?

So I think the world would be a much better place without alcohol. And I have a right to my feelings, and you all have to abide by my opinions if you want to force me to take a non-FEA-approved vaccine that I am not convinced I need.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by fintstone

If there are 5 empty ICU beds after allowing hordes of unvaccinated and infected pour across the nearby border...that sounds like good news to me.

Interesting way to say you were wrong and admit you agree that the hoards of unvaccinated are a major public health hazard.

[island911]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Interesting way to say you were wrong and admit you agree that the hoards of unvaccinated are a major public health hazard.

He wrote " unvaccinated and infected . . ."

Sheesh.

[Esel Mann]

back on topic for consequences, motion to propose an evening in raw's hanger. chauffeur airport picup in his turbo leCar! any 2nd to motion?

[group911@aol.co]

Church let out early today?

Originally Posted by fintstone

If there are 5 empty ICU beds after allowing hordes of unvaccinated and infected pour across the nearby border...that sounds like good news to me.

[group911@aol.co]

News alert. Driving sober has been mandated and codified.

Originally Posted by daepp

How many alcohol related deaths are there each year.

Drunk driving deaths?
Alcohol fueled domestic violence deaths?
Accidental falls, etc?
Cirrhosis deaths and liver cancer death?
Alcohol related hypertension deaths?
Alcohol related heart disease?
Death from stroke?
Death from mouth, throat, esophagus disease?

And how many alcohol related mental health problems, including depression and anxiety, social problems, including family problems, job-related problems, and how much unemployment?

So I think the world would be a much better place without alcohol. And I have a right to my feelings, and you all have to abide by my opinions if you want to force me to take a non-FEA-approved vaccine that I am not convinced I need.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

And no, i have never seen a hospitals capacity been stretched by patients with smoking related illnesses. Have you? While they do require services do they burden care facilities to the point that elective surgeries get cancelled and every other illness takes a back seat. You are not really trying to seriously equate the two are you?
.

That’s only because we’ve had 200 years to build up hospital capacity to deal with smoking related illnesses.

If the health impacts of smoking suddenly appeared today, its impact on the hospital system would be far greater than COVID is today.

Smoking is a far more deadly and costly health problem than COVID. According to the cdc, smoking kills almost 1 million Americans every 2 years. And has done so for decades. COVID doesn’t even come close.

“Cigarette smoking remains the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the United States. Cigarette smoking kills more than 480,000 Americans each year.1 In addition, the United States spends more than $300 billion a year on smoking-related illness, including more than $225 billion in direct medical care for adults.”CDC

[Por_sha911]

# of empty beds is akin to the weather for today - a temporary problem. A big one, but temporary.
Lets look at the cost to health insurance and business productivity due to smoking. Lets look at how many people have heart disease and strokes due to smoking.
My point is that there have been restrictions to where you smoke but not if you smoke. That is because the taxes paid on every pack is a cash cow the government doesn't want to give up so all the folks who have 'moral outrage' (aka virtue signaling) when it comes to COVID and public health just have another martini and look the other way at cigarette sales.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by island911

He wrote " unvaccinated and infected . . ."

Sheesh.

Thanks for putting that in bold but totally not necessary, I can see just fine. Appreciate your looking out though.

Considering the considerable amount of time over the last 18 pages spent discussing that the vaccinated can be infectious it seems logical and obvious to anyone paying attention that the infected is inclusive of both the vaccinated and unvaccinated so there is no reason to make the distinction that he was only referring to the infected who are unvaccinated making it clear that he was referring to two distinct groups, those who are unvaccinated and those who are infected, even though some of the later are represented in the former.

Fint chooses his words very carefully, we have to respect that what he said is what he meant.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by McLovin

That’s only because we’ve had 200 years to build up hospital capacity to deal with smoking related illnesses.

If the health impacts of smoking suddenly appeared today, its impact on the hospital system would be far greater than COVID is today.

Smoking is a far more deadly and costly health problem than COVID. According to the cdc, smoking kills almost 1 million Americans every 2 years. And has done so for decades. COVID doesn’t even come close.

“Cigarette smoking remains the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the United States. Cigarette smoking kills more than 480,000 Americans each year.1 In addition, the United States spends more than $300 billion a year on smoking-related illness, including more than $225 billion in direct medical care for adults.”CDC

But it never has made that impact on the healthcare system, ever. I'll grant you the healthcare system had time to adapt. Do any of us really want to live in a world where we've adapted to COVID in perpetuity?

500,000 a year is 1 million every 2 years and I think more than comes close to 480,000, in fact, I'm pretty sure it's more.

But just to make sure lemme go find a 5th grader to validate.

BRB.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

But it never has made that impact on the healthcare system, ever. I'll grant you the healthcare system had time to adapt. Do any of us really want to live in a world where we've adapted to COVID in perpetuity?

Check out the actuary tables of the health insurance industry and see HOW MUCH MORE YOU PAY for healthcare due to smokers. They've only recently started mildly adjusting rates for non smokers but they have to have enough cushion to protect themselves from the liars.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Check out the actuary tables of the health insurance industry and see HOW MUCH MORE YOU PAY for healthcare due to smokers. They've only recently started adjusting rates for non smokers but they have to have enough cushion to protect themselves from the liars.

Meh, I smoked for 30+ years. I know, not the smartest thing and maybe, hopefully not, I'll suffer the consequences of some poor decision making but at least the value proposition for me was fair with respect to insurance.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

500,000 a year is 1 million every 2 years and I think more than comes close to 480,000, in fact, I'm pretty sure it's more.

But just to make sure lemme go find a 5th grader to validate.

BRB.

Run the math for 1980 to 2020.
Or 2018 to 2020.
Or 2019 to 2021.
Or, any 2 year period of your choosing.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by daepp

How many alcohol related deaths are there each year.

Drunk driving deaths?
Alcohol fueled domestic violence deaths?
Accidental falls, etc?
Cirrhosis deaths and liver cancer death?
Alcohol related hypertension deaths?
Alcohol related heart disease?
Death from stroke?
Death from mouth, throat, esophagus disease?

And how many alcohol related mental health problems, including depression and anxiety, social problems, including family problems, job-related problems, and how much unemployment?

So I think the world would be a much better place without alcohol. And I have a right to my feelings, and you all have to abide by my opinions if you want to force me to take a non-FEA-approved vaccine that I am not convinced I need.

"Congress Could Mandate Anti–Drunk Driving Technology in New Cars" https://www.caranddriver.com/news/amp37220611/anti-drunk-driving-congress-law/

[island911]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Thanks for putting that in bold but totally not necessary, ..

clearly a little bit necessary. You did miss it the first time.