Vaccines are moving the needle...

[Sooner or later]

"Significant decrease in deaths due to heart disease " "this sudden decline in deaths is observed for all other causes" "All of this points to no evidence that COVID-19 created any excess deaths. Total death numbers are not above normal death numbers"

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/Leading-Causes-of-Death-for-2015-2020.pdf

[Sooner or later]

From tinfoil Johns Hopkins. Basically, a misrepresentation of the facts. This was discussed in detail last year. Misinformation that continues to be spread.

Article posted.on Nov 22nd


Editors note on Nov 27th about the Nov 22nd article.
https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/11/a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-due-to-covid-19




Further clarification on Dec 3rd.
https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/12/on-the-retraction-of-a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-and-our-coverage-of-covid-19

[javadog]

What does any of that crap have to do with recent excess deaths in Europe? And take note of the dates, that’s last year, before the vaccines.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by javadog

What does any of that crap have to do with recent excess deaths in Europe? And take note of the dates, that’s last year, before the vaccines.

Ask John. He made the post and tried to use the misinformation laden article as proof of no excess deaths.

[john70t]

I see that article back-pedaling and trying to "re-explain" the authors findings by the presiding powers. Oh and like posters here they emphasize the need to "combat misinformation on the internet by conspiracy theorists". That doesn't sound like the scientific method to me. More like the accusers of Copernicus. The scientific method should put all the information on the table and allow all the different interpretations equally. And that is not happening.

Are there more deaths each year? Obviously. There is a rapidly growing population due to changes in immigration, natural growth, baby boomers reaching maturity, and lack of health care due to expense and other factors. Obesity from our poor diets and generational habits, the artificial expense of diabetes drugs, stress-induced alcoholism, suicides, crime, and other social factors have all resulted from complete shutdowns of the economy and loss of careers as a result of the government's response to a new strain of influenza, and their opportunistic attempts to create a centralized authoritarian state of dependency and control. It might be argued using the proverbial "the cure is worse than the cause". So many other medical patients have died from lack of access or just being denied care as hospitals shut down while receiving even more governmental funding. I feel sorry for anyone who believes the medical/government authorities have acted responsibly or rationally or consistently through this entire mess deliberately created. It has ruined many lives and they should be held accountable.

Can Covid be deadly? I don't think anyone here including myself has argued otherwise. All flues can be deadly but other significant epidemics have gone virtually unnoticed in recent years under different leadership. Why is that? Personally I had some sort very nasty flu or incident about a year ago and experienced it first hand. In almost all instances Covid affects the compromised and elderly. But instead of intelligent planning which informs and protects the public while keeping the economy viable there is completely chaotic over-reach while other factors deliberately spread the virus. Putting Covid patients in nursing homes? Open borders after cramming immigrants together for weeks/months and no vax. Exceptions for select political groups? Really? Ignorance as an excuse would be farcical at this point. At least three different types of vaccines from how many different sources distributed randomly is not scientific at all. And it just keeps getting worse as if the same institutions are incapable of doing their highly-paid jobs or even learning.

You are picking one item out of an extended list of everything wrong and focus great attention to that one subject as if all others must surely be equally wrong by default. The most blatant and obtuse subject remain ignored meanwhile. That is a cheap internet technique we have all seen too many times to fall for. It really fools nobody.

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by javadog

That maybe so but I suggest you don’t call me a liar.

I'm not calling you a liar I'm calling those other people you're listening to liars. It's a grift, they can poo-poo the vaccine and get more ad revenue to their site.

Originally Posted by john70t

I see that article back-pedaling and trying to "re-explain" the authors findings by the presiding powers. Oh and like posters here they emphasize the need to "combat misinformation on the internet by conspiracy theorists". That doesn't sound like the scientific method to me. More like the accusers of Copernicus. The scientific method should put all the information on the table and allow all the different interpretations equally. And that is not happening.

It is happening, though, it's just that one side is losing badly because the data is not in their favor and instead of going "okay yeah maybe the vaccines are good" they've realized they can show the same poor information to uneducated internet readers and generate ad revenue and get invited onto right-wing TV programs.

I would also point out that the scientific method does not require that all information be put on the table for everyone to review*, but rather those people who have the necessary background to properly understand it. Improper data, which can be quickly proven inaccurate and misleading, can still cause an uproar once released to the uninformed public. It sounds ****ty to say it like that but when I say "uninformed public" I mean it in the most direct way--just look at what happened with vaccines and autism. One bad, actually fraudulent study that was never corroborated caused an international uproar.

*Well the information is always out there for anyone to access, but quantum physicists across the world are not waiting for Joe Blow with no formal education to chime in on his experiment with light bulbs.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

I'm not calling you a liar I'm calling those other people you're listening to liars. It's a grift, they can poo-poo the vaccine and get more ad revenue to their site.

Are the people at Public Health Scotland liars? Last I checked, that was a government entity.

I’m sure that you haven’t gone to their site to look at the data, care to share the “tons” of examples you have debunking THIS particular claim? I’m not interested in more extraneous information unrelated to this recent occurrence, as has already been posted here.

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by javadog

Are the people at Public Health Scotland liars? Last I checked, that was a government entity.

I’m sure that you haven’t gone to their site to look at the data, care to share the “tons” of examples you have debunking THIS particular claim? I’m not interested in more extraneous information unrelated to this recent occurrence, as has already been posted here.

First off, my response regarding people lying on the internet was about doctors claiming they were not allowed to report vaccine related side effects. Don't conflate the two.

Now, I did go to look at the data from Public Health Scotland, but in this case raw data doesn't suffice because it didn't discuss other contributing factors (which I think is a mistake on their part to avoid misinterpretations by some people). There are other articles on the internet, if you care to find them, that discuss the causes of the excess deaths and the other factors that have contributed. Some of them even have quantitative analysis so you don't need to sit there scratching your head imagining "oh I guess all those extra deaths must be from the vaccine!"

There's also the understanding that deaths are being compared to the five year average of 2015-2019, which could have annual fluctuations that aren't shown on the public data report.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by john70t

I see that article back-pedaling and trying to "re-explain" the authors findings by the presiding powers. Oh and like posters here they emphasize the need to "combat misinformation on the internet by conspiracy theorists". That doesn't sound like the scientific method to me. More like the accusers of Copernicus. The scientific method should put all the information on the table and allow all the different interpretations equally. And that is not happening.

Are there more deaths each year? Obviously. There is a rapidly growing population due to changes in immigration, natural growth, baby boomers reaching maturity, and lack of health care due to expense and other factors. Obesity from our poor diets and generational habits, the artificial expense of diabetes drugs, stress-induced alcoholism, suicides, crime, and other social factors have all resulted from complete shutdowns of the economy and loss of careers as a result of the government's response to a new strain of influenza, and their opportunistic attempts to create a centralized authoritarian state of dependency and control. It might be argued using the proverbial "the cure is worse than the cause". So many other medical patients have died from lack of access or just being denied care as hospitals shut down while receiving even more governmental funding. I feel sorry for anyone who believes the medical/government authorities have acted responsibly or rationally or consistently through this entire mess deliberately created. It has ruined many lives and they should be held accountable.

Can Covid be deadly? I don't think anyone here including myself has argued otherwise. All flues can be deadly but other significant epidemics have gone virtually unnoticed in recent years under different leadership. Why is that? Personally I had some sort very nasty flu or incident about a year ago and experienced it first hand. In almost all instances Covid affects the compromised and elderly. But instead of intelligent planning which informs and protects the public while keeping the economy viable there is completely chaotic over-reach while other factors deliberately spread the virus. Putting Covid patients in nursing homes? Open borders after cramming immigrants together for weeks/months and no vax. Exceptions for select political groups? Really? Ignorance as an excuse would be farcical at this point. At least three different types of vaccines from how many different sources distributed randomly is not scientific at all. And it just keeps getting worse as if the same institutions are incapable of doing their highly-paid jobs or even learning.

You are picking one item out of an extended list of everything wrong and focus great attention to that one subject as if all others must surely be equally wrong by default. The most blatant and obtuse subject remain ignored meanwhile. That is a cheap internet technique we have all seen too many times to fall for. It really fools nobody.

One item?

The article from the JH student newspaper was bunk. Pure misinformation. None of these 3 statements from the article were correct. I showed the actual 2020 numbers.

"Significant decrease in deaths due to heart disease "
"this sudden decline in deaths is observed for all other causes"
"All of this points to no evidence that COVID-19 created any excess deaths. Total death numbers are not above normal death numbers"

You also completely misunderstood the the covid test accuracy. It has been explained to you multiple times. The covid test only shows positive for covid. It does not show positive for the flu. The multiplex test will show two results, positive or negative for the flu or covid. Prior to the multiplex test two tests were required, one for the flu and one for covid. There are multiple sources that explain it fully.
https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/pcr-test-recall-can-the-test-tell-the-difference-between-covid-19-and-the-flu
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/eua-withdrawal-for-cdc-covid-19-pcr-test-is-due-to-the-development-of-newer-tests-that-help-save-time-and-resources-not-because-the-test-is-faulty/

The lack of a world wide flu season is not as clear cut as the prior 2 pieces of misinformation. Though science can be used to explain the anomaly. And it isn't because of a faulty test. This has also been explained multiple times. Covid spreads far more easily than the flu. Social distancing, limited in class school, worldwide travel reduction, masking, better hygiene, increased flu vaccinations, etc all took the R0 value of the flu from about a 2 to below 1. Below an R1 it quickly dies out. Those same restrictions took Covid from a R3/4 to about a 2. At an R2 covid cases could still grow. Initially, we had no vaccine for covid so we had no head start on slowing the spread like we do with the flu vaccine. The Delta variant spreads even far more easily, an R5 or R6. It also evaded the new covid vaccines at causing infection, though deaths and hospitalizations are still vastly reduced.

There are many sources.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-the-flu-season-basically-disappeared-this-year#School-and-office-closures-led-to-a-drop-in-transmission
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/season/faq-flu-season-2020-2021.htm

[javadog]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

First off, my response regarding people lying on the internet was about doctors claiming they were not allowed to report vaccine related side effects. Don't conflate the two.

Now, I did go to look at the data from Public Health Scotland, but in this case raw data doesn't suffice because it didn't discuss other contributing factors (which I think is a mistake on their part to avoid misinterpretations by some people). There are other articles on the internet, if you care to find them, that discuss the causes of the excess deaths and the other factors that have contributed. Some of them even have quantitative analysis so you don't need to sit there scratching your head imagining "oh I guess all those extra deaths must be from the vaccine!"

There's also the understanding that deaths are being compared to the five year average of 2015-2019, which could have annual fluctuations that aren't shown on the public data report.

I’m not trying to conflate the two issues, you were just unclear when you presented them and your subsequent comments.

I also made it clear that no official conclusions had been reached, although I offered my opinion as to what the ultimate finding might be. That isn’t based on pure conjecture, there’s actually a fair bit of information out there that is suppressed by the tech companies and the media. Time will tell how it all shakes out, I’ve made my prognostication and I think yours is quite clear from your comments.

As for the other issues about the doctors, there’s plenty of instances describing that available straight from the horses mouth, so to speak, if you care to look for it.

When the people involved in this mess continually move the goalposts, intelligent people often ask the question why.

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by javadog

I’m not trying to conflate the two issues, you were just unclear when you presented them and your subsequent comments.

I also made it clear that no official conclusions had been reached, although I offered my opinion as to what the ultimate finding might be. That isn’t based on pure conjecture, there’s actually a fair bit of information out there that is suppressed by the tech companies and the media. Time will tell how it all shakes out, I’ve made my prognostication and I think yours is quite clear from your comments.

As for the other issues about the doctors, there’s plenty of instances describing that available straight from the horses mouth, so to speak, if you care to look for it.

When the people involved in this mess continually move the goalposts, intelligent people often ask the question why.

It's a hell of a claim you've made, so far based on your understanding of raw data on excess deaths that has already gone through a lot of proper analysis elsewhere coming to different, quantitative conclusions. Do you have reputable sources supporting your opinion?

On individual claims from doctors here and there talking about being silenced I'm not going to engage with you. There's always someone willing to pay for a story like that, and always someone willing to take the money and lie.

[mdj930]

Originally Posted by LEAKYSEALS951

FAQS:Also report any additional select AEs and/or any revised safety reporting requirements per FDA’s conditions of authorized use of vaccine(s) throughout the duration of any COVID-19 Vaccine being authorized under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA).

AE defined as:
Serious AEs regardless of causality. Serious AEs per FDA are defined as:
Death;
A life-threatening AE;
Inpatient hospitalization or prolongation of existing hospitalization;
A persistent or significant incapacity or substantial disruption of the ability to conduct normal life functions;
A congenital anomaly/birth defect;
An important medical event that based on appropriate medical judgement may jeopardize the individual and may require medical or surgical intervention to prevent one of the outcomes listed above.

Goodnight folks. I'm out.

Works perfect
Just ask Hank Aaron

Mike

[javadog]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

It's a hell of a claim you've made, so far based on your understanding of raw data on excess deaths that has already gone through a lot of proper analysis elsewhere coming to different, quantitative conclusions. Do you have reputable sources supporting your opinion?

On individual claims from doctors here and there talking about being silenced I'm not going to engage with you. There's always someone willing to pay for a story like that, and always someone willing to take the money and lie.

Maybe you missed it but I stated upfront that NO analysis has been done on the data. I’m not sure how much more clearly I can state that, maybe the problem in understanding it is on your end.

I simply gave my prognostication on what we’re going to find, which is based on what I have read from doctors and virologists that aren’t on the government grant gravy train.

Go ahead, show me all of the “tons” of information that you have that have already analyzed this data and debunked it. I’ll wait… but not for long.

As for saying that these doctors are simply paid to lie, absent any evidence to the contrary from you, I’ll just consider that you’re full of **** is a Christmas goose with respect to that allegation. Feel free to back it up though, if it’s as common as you say, surely someone has figured it out.

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by javadog

Maybe you missed it but I stated upfront that NO analysis has been done on the data. I’m not sure how much more clearly I can state that, maybe the problem and understanding it is on your end.

I simply gave my prognostication on what we’re going to find, which is based on what I have read from doctors and virologist that aren’t on the government grant gravy train.

Go ahead, show me all of the “tons” of information that you have that I’ve already analyzed the data and defunct it. I’ll wait but not for long.

That's the thing, analyses have been performed, one I saw including quantitative checks on what was making up the difference. It wasn't hidden or anything it was the BBC and it took me five minutes to find it. If you can't be bothered for even that simple a check why should I waste my time pulling this for you?

As for saying that these doctors are simply paid to lie, absent any evidence to the contrary from you, I’ll just consider that you’re full of **** is a Christmas goose with respect to that allegation. Feel free to back it up though, if it’s as common as you say, surely someone has figured it out.

Not necessarily direct payments but media attention, book sales, etc. If you're thinking everyone pushing anti-vax information is acting in good faith you're fooling yourself. There have been pharmacists damaging vaccine doses or giving placebos that have suffered criminal penalties, you think those same people wouldn't jump at the chance to badmouth the vaccine on TV if given the chance?

Do I believe that there have been instances of people trying to downplay complications? Yes I think it's likely. Do I think that they were doing so maliciously and not just trying to look at results before people freak out? Not necessarily, but maybe some. But that there has already been a major halt to usage of one of the vaccines should tell you that the reporting system is working.

[javadog]

Gee, I feel better now. The BBC has investigated and found that there is no problem. Tell me, when did they become an investigative agency? Last I looked, they were a media outlet and I don’t necessarily trust their “journalists” any more than I trust the narrative engineers at the New York Times, or ABC, etc. Sorry, that’s just a ridiculous argument.

I would encourage you to do a little more research into the potential complications from these vaccines. Go beyond what the doctors and virologist are saying, take a look at the trials that the vaccine companies did. In particular, look at the ones they ended early. See if you could figure out why. Then, take a look at the CDC data that they quit tracking for the first time, ever. And then have a look at the OSHA regulations and what they have changed, in terms of what employers are required to track with respect to the vaccinations.

If you’re smart, you’ll start to see a pattern here. If not, well, wait till somebody spoon feeds you the bad news a couple years down the road.

[island911]

Originally Posted by hbueno

Yeppers. The old adage about pigs/wrestling/mud applies here in soades.

You do know that you are complaining about "Sour Grapes" right?

You go into a discussion, can't convince, so you call the others pigs. - classy.

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by javadog

Gee, I feel better now. The BBC has investigated and found that there is no problem. Tell me, when did they become an investigative agency? Last I looked, they were a media outlet and I don’t necessarily trust their “journalists” any more than I trust the narrative engineers at the New York Times, or ABC, etc. Sorry, that’s just a ridiculous argument.

I would encourage you to do a little more research into the potential complications from these vaccines. Go beyond what the doctors and virologist are saying, take a look at the trials that the vaccine companies did. In particular, look at the ones they ended early. See if you could figure out why. Then, take a look at the CDC data that they quit tracking for the first time, ever. And then have a look at the OSHA regulations and what they have changed, in terms of what employers are required to track with respect to the vaccinations.

If you’re smart, you’ll start to see a pattern here. If not, well, wait till somebody spoon feeds you the bad news a couple years down the road.

Okay whatever guy. Enjoy your inflated sense of self-worth from knowing something all the sheep don't.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

Okay whatever guy. Enjoy your inflated sense of self-worth from knowing something all the sheep don't.

May your lack of awareness keep you safe.

All I want is the freedom to choose what to do about this particular pathogen. I don’t want the government to tell me what to do, I don’t want businesses and employers to tell me what to do and I don’t want your blind acquiescence to all of the above to influence what affects me.

[island911]

" inflated sense of self-worth "

oye, the ad hominem...

Folding like Ikea furniture.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

The lack of a world wide flu season is not as clear cut as the prior 2 pieces of misinformation. Though science can be used to explain the anomaly. And it isn't because of a faulty test. This has also been explained multiple times. Covid spreads far more easily than the flu. Social distancing, limited in class school, worldwide travel reduction, masking, better hygiene, increased flu vaccinations, etc all took the R0 value of the flu from about a 2 to below 1.

And you believe that the numbers reported by the WHO/CDC/FDA/etc are sound and they have nothing personal to gain?
And the government paying for-profit privatized hospitals more for Covid patients would have no bearing on accurate medical self-reporting?
And the investors of Phizer/Moderna/J&J do not compose of big money players and politicians with a conflict of interest and financial incentive?
It's just amazing.