Tough ultimatum from spouse

[cool_chick]

Livi, is there anything she does that makes her unfit in the eyes of Swedish law?

Does she drink too much? Anything?

I hate to be this way, but I swear, not much infuriates me more than a woman who could do that to a child. A child needs both parents (separate or together), needs calmess, needs loving, needs peace, needs to see people around her treat each other with respect...(this is where they learn these things, from the adults around them).

The person that will be hurt in all this long term is that beautiful baby. Why don't women like this understand that? Why would they want to damage their baby and help to breed insecurity and resentment in them? Why?

How about during this process, getting a therapist for her as a requirement by the court, is that possible?

Honestly, Livi, I do feel so bad for you right now, but I have full faith that you will come out better than ever, and you, being of an adult mind at this time, have the ability to come to this conclusion. But in the long term, I'm most deeply concerned for your daughter at this time.

There's got to be a way to reverse this, no? Any of you guys been successful in this?

[bigchillcar]

livi..at least you won't make the same mistake a good friend of mine of 20 years + did 2 weeks ago. he's suffered from manic depression and his wife of 10 years had had enough and filed divorce papers, seeking full-custody. the idea of his not being able to see his boys, 4 and 8, more than a couple hours a week were too much during his depressed state. he took his own life and left a wake of sorrow behind. i said his eulogy. now his boys won't have him at all. i sympathized with his plight, but some time would have beaten the hell out of 'no time'. i know that this isn't your mind state, sounds like you're making the right decisions for everyone involved. eventually things should calm down between you and the gf and everyone can move forward with their lives. be strong, be firm..say only as much as you have to..avoid more confrontations with her..avoid being alone with her for this to happen. keep focused on the good of your kids. they'll certainly be better off on the long run not witnessing constant fighting and bickering between their parents. staying together for the sake of the kids does no good if the parents are a living example of what not to do..and then it gets passed on to their generation. you're doing a brave, loving thing for your kids..you're putting their emotional health first, above all else. you are to be commended.
ryan

[nostatic]

Originally posted by livi


Life is not supposed to be like this. Is it ?

According to the Buddhists, it is like that unless you can let go of expectations. I can't tell you how much time, energy, and emotion I've spent on trying to make life how it "should be," and worry about what might be, or how I screwed things up. It is how it is, and what you can control is your actions and response to life.

The bottom line is you always have a choice. But they are rarely easy, and often painful. But without pain, you have no reference for pleasure and joy. The other thing I'm discovering is that the things in life that are really worthwhile are never easy or painless...

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Don Ro
Thanks for that link...excellent info. I have not heard of Bernard W. Bail, M.D.
He speaks with elegance and great humanity.
I like the way he presents his obvious vast knowledge.
I saved it and will look through it more tomorrow and later.
.
Are you involved with his ongoing discussion group?

He is quite amazing. The guy has been to hell and back...he's no armchair pundit or ivy halls intellectual. I'm not in the ongoing discussion group, but see someone from his "school" of thought. The work is quite difficult and often painful, but the revelations are astonishing if you're willing to be honest and mindful.

[bigchillcar]

todd..thanks for the excellent link to dr. bail. for those of us who've spent far too much time in our lives in deep introspection (spending too much time looking into the past - depression....worrying too much about the future - anxiety), i'm looking forward to spending more time on his site. kind of like the question of the reconciliation of 'faith and reason'..many questions, few clear answers. much of the novel, which i wrote and is now 'in the hands of an agent' takes time to explore this fundamental question of the significance of existance. and lately, a couple of buddhist friends have been kind enough to pass along some excellent reading..pema chodron and sakyong mipham..can't put my hand on the other book. curious, have you ever read schaeffer ('the god who is there') and others..
ryan

[Don Ro]

I had been searching for a road map for years, and spent great amounts of time on dead-end pursuits.
Tons of dead-end/lame BS conversion systems are out there...I knew that I needed more info to ferret-out the legit from the BS. Also, I wasn't interested in painting over my rust; I was willing to do the psychological Kamikaze full-tilt boogie.
So where was I to find a "who's who", a "what's what" on the matter of personal liberation pathwork?

Just happened to awaken and saw the last 10 min.'s of an TV interview @ 3:50 a.m. back in '95...finally, someone was speaking my language. I couldn't go back to sleep - couldn't wait for sunrise.
Bought his book that morning, sat in the parking lot scanning and reading it for several hours, recognized many of the names of the most prominent "seekers" and systems, past and present...eventually I found what I was searching for and never looked back.
.
What Really Matters: Searching for Wisdom in America
by Tony Schwartz
.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553374923/102-6996300-0944944?v=glance&n=283155
.
Schwartz: "I have spent much of my time detouring around New Age popularizers, self-promoting hucksters, and charismatic demagogues posing as enlightened teachers."

Reviewer: "In short this book is a good start for anyone perturbed with the classic question of what really matters in life because it has in it all traditions, conventional or contemporary/scientific, that one needs to know. And they are all written with a touching dedication and journalistic skepticism. This book changed my life in the most significant way.
Thanks, Tony."

[livi]

Don,

How does Tony´s book compare to books of Dr Phil ? Similar contents ? Out of curiosity I read the good doctors books. Left me with a feeling of: - Sure, he is probably right. But so what ? Did not hit me with: - Yeah ! Thats what I am looking for!

[wcc]

Too bad you don't live closer to me cause as soon as I met your GF I would have told you and saved you a TON of grief! I have 2 friends that I told them about their GFs (at the time) and they both hated me for saying what I said and one actually got married and I didn't hear from him in a long time. Well to make a long story short the one guy broke up with his GF and we are friends again and the other guy is going through a divorce and said that he should've listened to me all along. Well you can't live in coulda, woulda, shoulda, it's time to bite the bullet and say C-YA BIZZZZZZ!!!!

BTW: There is acutally a third one in there but that would take too long to talk about....

[nostatic]

I highly recommend any of Pemo Chodron's books. She is quite amazing. One reason I can "lean into my sharp points" these days.

http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/

http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/bookstore1.php

"When Things Fall Apart" is a masterpiece. As is "The Wisdom of No Escape."

[Don Ro]

Originally posted by livi
Out of curiosity I read the good doctors books. Left me with a feeling of: - Sure, he is probably right. But so what ? Did not hit me with: - Yeah ! Thats what I am looking for!

Knowing what to look for is a plus, Markus.

What *are* you looking for?

[snowman]

You two are the reason cohabitation is illegal, or should be if it isn't. You are both screwed up beyond all hope and should have your kid taken away from you so as not to adversly influence her. That said, you are both a pice of crap for haveing a kid out of wedlock. Is that pretty clear? Hope so, you deserve whatever you get, your kid dosen't.

judgemental? No, just the facts.

[Moneyguy1]

snow..

That IS judgemental, cruel, and totally uncalled for. You are imposing your beliefs on someone else.

Whether I believe in co-habitation or children without a piece of paper is a private affair.

Youare truly a legend in your own mind.

Now apologize and play nice, or go home.

[snowman]

nothing to apologize for. The truth sometime hurts. Just the facts, not a beleif.

[bigchillcar]

snow...remember the thing about throwing stones from glass houses? on behalf of markus, you can kiss my white ass. what a completely thoughtless, senseless, uncharitable piece of garbage to pass along to someone struggling. i could go on, but the message is wasted on a total ass, a horror of a human being. just the facts.
ryan

[ianc]

Snow, you truly are a tasteless, thoughtless piece of garbage.

Here's something my parents taught me when I was young; "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it".

Strange you haven't learned this yet in 50 some odd years on earth, but take it from me: no one wants to hear your drooling abusive crap. Go far far away and don't come back,

ianc

[Moneyguy1]

Perhaps it is the rest of us who should apologize since we are obviously wrong, uninformed and less insightful.

Must suck to always be right, though...no room for improvement!!

[450knotOffice]

There's always one crackpot in the bunch that makes everyone look up and say "what the?! Oh, never mind, it was just the village idiot babbling on about something idiotic again."

Anyway...

Livi, all I can say is that I completely agree with the responses you've gotten so far (with one strange exception). I have been happily married for 19 years and can honestly say that manipulation of one's spouse has no place in a healthy relationship. Get out now or you will end up bitter and hateful toward her for having ruined your life.

Sorry to be so frank with you, Livi. Good luck to you.

[Milu]

Snow,
I thought the biggest, ignorant, stupid and arrogant fool on Pelican hung out on the classified and Cayenne forums. I was wrong. Congratulations on hitting a new low!

[livi]

This board is full of wonderful people. Benevolent and supportive. Always ready to reach out to someone in need or pain.

No need to come out so harsh Snowman. We are all here for you.

[ronb]

A second vote for Pema Chodron - clear thinking which is what one needs at all times, but one rarely does. A crisis like this is the opportunity to reassess and become a clear thinker, let go of all traps etc. Otherwise, it's a pattern that will repeat.

It helped move me out of a marriage that was comprable to your situation, and then into a wonderful marriage of 8 years now.

The past seems to be something that happened to someone else.
Take a look at what Pema Chodron writes, it's even online, and acessible (ie not esoteric cloudy writing, just clear clear clear).