top gear in Alabama

[berettafan]

Originally posted by svandamme
it's just that several folks on this board have been very vocal about how U S A is better at everything then everyone else
especially when it comes to FREEDOM® and having the best rights and what not ... liberally quoting the Constitution about everything... yet folks get beat up for having a different idea about something

'Freedom' doesn't mean you won't get beat up if you pass out invitations to a gay bar in front of a Harley dealership, it means you won't go to jail.

I find it hard to believe that bigotry is non-existent in Europe.

[Dueller]

Hmmmm...svannedamn, how 'bout giving us your take on Fortuyn's assassination. Or perhaps Theo Van Gogh's murder. Maybe some of the recent mosque burnings in a country with nearly a million muslims (out of a total of what 15-16 million). What about the debate of closing immigration to Islamic immigrants?

While your country has been a model in espousing free speech and outlawing discrimination, there has been a recent rash of intolerance, no?

[Dottore]

Originally posted by bivenator

If you are acting/dressed in a way that is not along with the society's norm then you will recieve extra attention. Where ever you may be, EU, Irag, Denmark, Honduras or even in the deep South.

I think my point was that parts of the US south are extreme in their intolerance of people who are somehow different in appearance or mentality. The reaction is one of suspicion, distrust and even aggression.

I don't know many places in the world where such general intolerance is accepted as being part of the 'culture'.

As svandamme points out correctly - in Europe the attitude to someone who looks different and doesn't fit in would be to "stand back and enjoy the circus" - not to get aggressive and ugly about it. (I'm of course not talking about the deep rooted ethnic animosities you find in communities everywhere - but rather about the general intolerance of others and other ways that you find in parts of the south.)

There's a much greater general tolerance and civility in Europe about such matters that you would be very hard-pressed to find in parts of the US south.

[Dueller]

Dottore...I really would like to know your exposure to the deep south. I live in Mississippi fer god's sake and I find a high degree of tolerance, perhaps moreso than more "sophisticated" areas of the country.

To wit: Saturday night I was in my wife's bar/restaraunt and observed two openly gay men in a booth, a table of black couples, a group of car salesmen (about half black/half white) boisterously celebrating a great January, two white men watching the Nascar race on one of the TV's, one openly lesbian patron, a mixed race couple in another booth, along with various other "normal" patrons. There was even two soccer coaches in...one from Scotland and one from Ireland and THEY got along...lol

Amazingly they all co-existed peacefully...even when one of the Nascar fans asked one of the black patrons if he minded switching from a basketball game to the race.

Granted, there have been historically ugly incidents in the relatively recent past, but its becomming apparent you've not paid a visit to the new South of late.

[Moses]

A good friend of mine is a black South African. He lived in the US for many years getting his graduate degree and teaching. He lived in California, Georgia, New York and Massachusetts. He encountered rascism everywhere. The worst by far was in the Northeast. He loved the South.

[artplumber]

They'll believe what they want to believe.

I've lived in Europe and the US from urban to small cities. There really is little difference in tolerance. The groups (that are accepted) are different, but people are the same the world over.

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by Dottore
I think my point was that parts of the US south are extreme in their intolerance of people who are somehow different in appearance or mentality. The reaction is one of suspicion, distrust and even aggression.

I don't know many places in the world where such general intolerance is accepted as being part of the 'culture'.

As svandamme points out correctly - in Europe the attitude to someone who looks different and doesn't fit in would be to "stand back and enjoy the circus" - not to get aggressive and ugly about it. (I'm of course not talking about the deep rooted ethnic animosities you find in communities everywhere - but rather about the general intolerance of others and other ways that you find in parts of the south.)

There's a much greater general tolerance and civility in Europe about such matters that you would be very hard-pressed to find in parts of the US south.

What unmitigated bravo sierra...you need to get out more with your "tolerant" friends who won't ever visit America.

Writing in homilies is as meaningless and wrong as your attitudes concerning America.

Your intolerance, and insistence that you are right to those whom you have offended, is telling.

[berettafan]

Hey Dottie & SVan, I'm a big Eddie Izzard fan. If that's not tolerance i don't know what is!

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Seahawk

Your intolerance, and insistence that you are right to those whom you have offended, is telling.

Eh?

This was a discussion about intolerance in the south - I thought - prompted by the BBC piece. Having lived and travelled extensively in the US and Europe, I stated my impressions viz., that I think there is a greater general level of tolerance for people who think and look differently than you do in Europe than there is parts of the US south.

I stand by my remarks.

If your experience is any different - I would like to hear about it. I am not insisting I am right nor am I trying to offend anyone. This is a discussion right?

[Dueller]

Muslims under fire

After the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh on November 2, 2004, the organized and unorganized extreme Right took their chance and attacked mosques, Islamic schools and immigrant organizations with bombs, Molotov cocktails, stones and paint. The police counted 96 ‘incidents’ against Islamic targets. An impression of the kind of attacks until the end of November.

Tuesday, November 2. An anonymous person calls the magazine “Amsterdams Stadsblad” and announces that he will, together with a group of Dutch people, “attack the Arabs. We will not let them slaughter us anymore.”

Thursday, November 4. A mosque in Veghel was smeared with slogans like “Holland our country”, “WP” and swastika’s. “WP” means “White Power”.

Thursday, November 4. Opposite a Pakistani mosque in Amsterdam people find a chopped off pig’s head.

Friday, November 5. Around this date the chairs on the terrace of a Moroccan restaurant in Leeuwarden are destroyed. It remains unclear who did this, but to be safe the owner removes the sign “Moroccan” from his facade.

Friday, November 5. In a mosque in Utrecht there’s a fire. It was unclear who lit it.

Friday, November 5. A 21 year old man throws a Molotov cocktail against a mosque in IJsselstein. Visitors of the mosque extinguish the fires.

Friday, November 5. The chairman of the Right populist party LPF (List Pim Fortuyn) faxes a letter to his own party office, threatening member of parliament Mat Herben and himself. He signs it with the name of an Islamic group, in order to give Muslims a bad name. The police find out and arrest him.

Saturday, November 6. In Huizen three people are arrested who planned to set fire to a mosque. They carried a rucksack with turpentine, oil, methylated spirit and paper.

Saturday, November 6. This weekend unknown people threw a Molotov cocktail into a mosque in Groningen. Another mosque in town is smeared with racist slogans.

Saturday, November 6. The doors of a mosque in Noordwijk are destroyed.

Sunday, November 7. In Breda anonymous people set fire to isolation material behind a mosque. The fire expires quickly.

Sunday, November 7. In Rotterdam a wooden pallet is put against the entrance of a mosque and is set on fire. The door gets damaged.

Sunday, November 7. Pamphlets with pictures and texts offending Muslims are stuck to a mosque in Rotterdam.

Sunday, November 7. The office of the organization Euro-Mediterraan Centrum Migratie en Ontwikkeling (EMCEMO) in Amsterdam gets smeared with red paint during this weekend. In this office many Moroccan organizations meet, including the Amsterdam Moroccan Town Council.

Monday, November 8. Around this date in ’s-Heerenberg the car of an man from Iraq is scratched with slogans like “****ing Muslims”.

Monday, November 8. In front of an Islamic school in Eindhoven a bomb explodes which severely damages the entrance and a lot of windows in the neighborhood. The school had been under attack before. On July 15, 2003, Molotov cocktails were thrown in, and on July 15, 2004, a window was destroyed and burning papers thrown in.

Tuesday, November 9. An Islamic school in Uden is set on fire. The building completely burns down. On the walls slogans are smeared like “Theo R.I.P.”, and a Celtic cross is painted together with the letters “WP”.

Tuesday, November 9. A bag with **** is thrown right through the window at the Moroccan consulate in Rotterdam.

Tuesday, November 9. A mosque in Arnhem is continuously guarded after the delivery of an anonymous threatening letter.

Wednesday, November 10. A mosque in Heerenveen is set on fire. Two fires are extinguished by the police. A 25 year old man confesses to be the arsonist. The police discover Right extremist material in his house, like posters and flags.

Wednesday, November 10. In Den Bosch posters with racist and anti-Islamic texts are put up on the walls.

Wednesday, November 10. There’s a false bomb alarm near a mosque in Heerlen.

Wednesday, November 10. The police receive a bomb alarm for a mosque in Appingedam. The 20 visitors have to leave the building, but it turns out to be a false alarm.

Wednesday, November 10. During the siege of the house of two “autochthonous” Muslim fundamentalists in The Hague, skinheads and supporters of the football club ADO Den Haag attack Moroccan youth. Both sides get hit.

Thursday, November 11. In Venray two men are arrested for planning to set fire to a local mosque. Two others are arrested later.

Thursday, November 11. The mosque and town hall in Veendam are smeared with racist slogans, swastika’s and Celtic crosses.

Friday, November 12. A bin next to a mosque in Eden is on fire. The wall of the mosque gets black and a window is destroyed.

Saturday, November 13. A mosque in Helden is set on fire. Nothing remains of the building.

Saturday, November 13. Anonymous people try to set fire to a mosque in Lelystad.

Saturday, November 13. A Turkish mosque in Maassluis is set on fire. The fire remains outside and a window is destroyed.

Sunday, November 14. The police in Hoogkarspel removes dozens of pamphlets with texts like “How many still have to come, how many still have to go?”, “Get up, join in” and “Mohammed pedophile”. The pamphlets are signed by the unknown “Westfries Legioen”. On other locations in West-Friesland these pamphlets are also found.

Sunday, November 14. Two men are arrested this weekend. They planned to set fire to a mosque in Gorinchem.

Sunday, November 14. This weekend discriminating slogans like “Muslims get out of here” are smeared on Turkish and Moroccan shops in Alkmaar. The windows of a Jewish lunchroom are smashed.

Sunday, November 14. A 16 year old boy is arrested for throwing a Molotov cocktail at a Turkish community center in Alkmaar. The fire was extinguished quickly, but the window-frames were already burned.

Monday, November 15. The police receive a bomb alarm for the mosque in the Beverwijk Bazar. The bomb squat searches the place, but finds nothing.

Friday, November 19. Four men from Almere are arrested for arson and smashing windows of the local Islamic school. The police discovered the fire in time.

Sunday, November 21. The Turkish mosque in Maassluis is under attack again. This time, two men throw a Molotov cocktail that lands right next to it. The damage remains small.

Sunday, November 21. Three windows of a mosque in Heerenveen are smashed.

Monday, November 22. A Molotov cocktail is thrown at a mosque in The Hague. A window gets broken and the window-frames and outside walls of the mosques get black.

Friday, November 26. In West-Friesland posters are discovered again with texts like “Mohammed is a pedophile”.

Sunday, November 28. Anonymous people smear the mosque in Emmen with slogans like “****ing Turks” and “****ing blacks”. Swastika’s are also painted.

[Dottore]

And the point about the long Dutch post is?

There are simmering ethnic tensions everywhere - particularly in places where large numbers of immigrants have been taken in but not properly assimilated for whatever reason.

The murder of Theo van Gogh was a particularly egregious act that triggered a predictable backlash.

There are many similar stories between the French and their North African immigrant population, the Germans and the Turks etc etc.

[Dueller]

Dottore...

I posted my experience as recently as day before yesterday. Seriously, when was the last time you visited the deep south? And where? How long?

I agree there may be enclaves of intolerance, but they certainly aren't limited (or necessarily more prevalent) in the deep South. They exist in other areas of the States, Europe, the World.

[Craig 930 RS]

The problem with what the TG crew did?
It was: Absolutely In Your Face

Shove something down the throats of an area where they knew - they KNEW - there would be trouble.

Yet I enjoyed it.

Perhaps I should wear a Manchester United jersey with
"Football fans are Fags" embroidered on it.........?

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by Dottore
The US is really a study in contrasts. I doubt very much from your posts that this applies to you - but many of my European friends who know the US only superficially tend to view it all as somehow the same. But no country of which I'm aware contains greater extremes - intellectually, culturally, socially, politically, geographically, financially - on just about any level you care to name.

Rural Alabama is as different from the Upper East Side as rural Iraq is from Paris.

It's always difficult to generalize about America and things American when you are there.

Equally, it becomes much easier to generalize about America when you are not actually there, because all one tends to see is the ugly side of America abroad: it's consistent foreign policy disasters; it's military adventurism; it's truly corrupt administration; the infantile media - led abroad by CNN and USA Today; and the cheap and nasty pop-culture and bad taste projected abroad - to say nothing of the hordes of overweight tourists dressed in shorts, baseball caps and fanny packs who genuinely have no idea whether they are in Brussels or Budapest.

It's very easy to see the US one dimensionally from abroad as simply a $hitty place. I have a couple of good European friends for example - who have travelled to every corner of the globe - except the US. You couldn't drag them to the US.

So from where I sit the US is a paradox: it seems to have the best and the worst of everything. In many areas - truly the worst. And in many areas - truly the best. It is a nation of extremes from which the middle - the cohesive common ground - seems to be slipping away.

End of rant.

Well, then keep your euro trash ass out of the USA.

Originally posted by scottbombedout
Bob, he was kidding. I've never been to America but that seriously put me off.
How can the USA go around the globe trying to install democracy when you dont even have freedom of speech in your own country. My first reaction to the petrol station owner was 'pathetic' . But she was kidding right?

Well, at least something good came out of it.

Originally posted by Dottore
I think my point was that parts of the US south are extreme in their intolerance of people who are somehow different in appearance or mentality. The reaction is one of suspicion, distrust and even aggression.

I don't know many places in the world where such general intolerance is accepted as being part of the 'culture'.

As svandamme points out correctly - in Europe the attitude to someone who looks different and doesn't fit in would be to "stand back and enjoy the circus" - not to get aggressive and ugly about it. (I'm of course not talking about the deep rooted ethnic animosities you find in communities everywhere - but rather about the general intolerance of others and other ways that you find in parts of the south.)

There's a much greater general tolerance and civility in Europe about such matters that you would be very hard-pressed to find in parts of the US south.

lets see what would happen it you pained Hitler was Right, and swastikas on a few cars and drive around europe.

Yes, we do have Freedom or Speach, but you have to accept what happens when you abuse it, you can't yell fire in a crowd, if you painted "I heart KKK on a truck and drove through Watts, you would be treated much worse than Clarkson.

Funny, you make fun of people from the south, when someone goes out of their way offend them, yet here, in the liberal mecca of Cali, all you have to do is drive by with a nice car.

http://www.filecabi.net/video/oakland256.html

Of course, this is freedom isn't it.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/13/1347.asp

[JSDSKI]

Originally posted by Dottore
I think my point was that parts of the US south are extreme in their intolerance of people who are somehow different in appearance or mentality. The reaction is one of suspicion, distrust and even aggression. I don't know many places in the world where such general intolerance is accepted as being part of the 'culture'

Boy, howdy ! fer a minit I thawt we wuz talkin bout ARAQ or sumpin. Sheeit.

[Christien]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
lets see what would happen it you pained Hitler was Right, and swastikas on a few cars and drive around europe.

Byron, that analogy doesn't quite work. Showing support for a man/group responsible for the genocidal killings of millions of people isn't quite the same as painting "NASCAR sucks" on the trunk of a Caddy, or even "manlove rules" on your truck.

I think if you painted a big swastika and "hitler was right" on your car, you'd get beaten up pretty much anywhere in the world.

[Howard Agency]

Originally posted by Moses
He's right, of course. These two hooked up at www.e-harmony.com/alabama

Thanks, Moses.
Was reading along with interest, but now all I can think of is your vegan.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Dueller
Dottore...

I posted my experience as recently as day before yesterday. Seriously, when was the last time you visited the deep south? And where? How long?

\

Look, of course my experience is anecdotal and impressionistic - just as is yours. What else could it be?

My last visit to the area was a 3 week road trip from Miami to Memphis in the spring of 2004. But I have been there often enough over the years to form an impression.

Of course in later visits I looked fairly normal - so didn't experience the aggression that I did on our first trip. But I think I have a fairly clear sense of the general tolerance - or lack of it in the rural south.

Anyway - I am a great fan of your fine country - with all of its many warts (and beauty spots!) - so please take no offense at my rantings.

[Dueller]

No offense taken...to quote you "I thought this was a discussion..."

I did find the piece humorous, much in the same vein of "Jackass: The Movie." But what I found most amusing was how cowardly the TG crew was once they provoked some redneck woman at a gas station. Real pu$$ies if you ask me. Especially after all their bravado in the opening scenes.

Maybe they can make it a recurring theme...lesssee:

"futbol is for fags" "Liverpool sucks" etc in L'pool driving some POS clapped out mini

"All guido's are *******'s" "Sinatra sucks" in little Italy

"Sunni's are trash" "Shiite's Rule" thru the streets of Baghdad

You get the point, eh?

So exactly WHERE is Lotus Land?



"

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by Dottore

I don't know many places in the world where such general intolerance is accepted as being part of the 'culture'.

You've got it totally wrong. In fact, the south is known as a land of hospitality. Just because you got some bottles chucked at you back in your long hair days (guessing the 70s since you won't say) doesn't mean everyone in the south is a redneck. In fact these days, there's far less bottle chucking.

Another thing, I'll wager that someone from France gets a hell of a lot better treatment in Alabama than someone from Alabama in France. Care to bet? Heck, I'll throw Germany in there too!