What Montanans Really Think of their Wolves

[HardDrive]

Not so sure what folks are getting so worked up about. The wolves and yotes in those photos died under a hell of a lot better circumstances than the cattle that went into your hamburger.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by MT930

I Have talked to many State Biologists ! They agree, The Impact is irrefutable

Ranchers too. The MT FWP has known this for a long time Mid 90's

This is a problem that most people in other parts of the country are not exposed to. This is a fight with the Fed's plain and simple. The State Fish Wildlife and Park were the ones that reported the Elk declines in the first place.

I respect the wolf, We just have too many of them.

then they are either trying to shut you up or are idiots

as many others have stated, wolves will take the old & sick (and some calves); they also introduce a "scare factor" into prey, which will then hug tight in cover

it is well established that w/o wolves, etc. elk will over-browse the vegetation

all the above makes hunting a bit more difficult sporting proposition

if you want to live in a big game farm, then your mileage may vary

you don't have too many of them

[9dreizig]

Originally Posted by RWebb

, wolves will take the old & sick (and a HUGE number of calves);

fixed it for you..
FYI when they were introduced into Yellowstone the Elk population dropped in half almost instantly..

Oh Mark,, the Buffalo near extinction was not due to sport hunters, was due to systematic slaughter by corporate hunters..

Wolves will hunt a species until near extinction in an area you need proof look at the moose and caribou populations in some area of AK,, Anyone who thinks they only take the old and sick is foolish,, there aren't enough old and sick of any species to sustain a healthy wolf population

[Buckterrier]

Originally Posted by Buckterrier

Oh wait it was homo sapiens that damn near killed them off.

What species are corporate hunters?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Rikao4

Thanks Jeff..

elk and deer up in certain areas = wolves hunted to extinction..

Hunt and Game did a poor job regulating # of wolves killed when they had control...= allowed killing to the point of extinction..

and folks will always side with the critter being hunted from a plane..

Rika

The key is balanced management, Rika. Wolves (and other large predators, such as the California grizzly) were hunted into near extinction before there was any semblance of modern game management. As a matter of fact, so were deer, elk, moose, and other game animals. These tragedies are a large part of why we have developed management philosophies based upon sound biology and sustainable numbers. Game biologists now estimate there are more deer and elk in North America than when the Pilgrims landed. No kidding. Modern game management has been that successful. And every last bit of it has been paid for by hunters, through license and tag fees, and taxes levied on their gear under the Pitman-Robertson act.

Wolves need to be brought in as a part of that in the lower 48, just as they are in Alaska. With no "endangered" status placed upon Alaskan wolves, the state is free to manage their populations just as they are free to manage other animals' populations. It works quite well up there.

Oh, and by the way, no one hunts wolves from helicopters. Game agents and hired guns shoot plenty of wolves from helicopters, true. In the vast, remote areas in which they are managing animal populations, there really is no other way. It is not meant to be sporting in any way, shape, or form. It's meant to be efficient and as cost-effective as possible. Alaskan taxpayers and hunters are footing the bill, after all. Game biologists identify a need to reduce wolf numbers in a given area, and they get it done. It's not pretty. It's not meant to be, and, frankly, they don't care.

Affected states in the lower 48 are simply pleading for the same authority in managing their populations. The wolf is, today, and uncontrolled "wild card" in the greater scheme of game management for these states. If they were not an extremely effective top-tier predator, things may be different. But they are. And, as such, they have a profound affect upon other animals that must be mitigated and brought under control. By game management professionals, not the courts.

Originally Posted by Buckterrier

Is that why in the 1800's there were millions of friggin' buffalo?????? Oh wait it was homo sapiens that damn near killed them off.
****ing sickening, and yeah that's a quote.

Yes, they did. In a purely political effort directed at stripping the native population of one of its key elements of survival and independence. And, incidentally, long before we ever thought of any sort of game management. Not that it would have mattered if we had, as these were by no means sport hunters out to fill a tag. They were market hunters at first (since made illegal in this country for any sort of game) and then, when the markets dried up, they were simply collecting bounties that were paid by our government.

What on earth does any of that have to do with our wolf situation?

[Buckterrier]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

What on earth does any of that have to do with our wolf situation?

It has to do with comments about wolves killing their prey until extinction. Just as Todd said... "The elk population was cut in half" or something like that. Predators and prey survived hundred's of thousands of years together without the need for arrogant homo sapien's interference or 'management'.
And if the Elk population was cut in half so be it. Then I guess the sport hunters will just have to work a little harder, like OddJob, (I think that's what he is trying to say, I never know).

Isn't it also a fact that predators will have less litters, smaller litters when the prey population dwindles? Checks & balances.

[RWebb]

True, they coexisted for longer than that.

But Jeff is correct that mgmt. is needed if you have modern* humans in the mix; also to adjust levels where humans want them (i.e. more elk, fewer wolves).

The states will be able to manage w/o interference once the wolves are no longer in danger of extinction. Or clearly no longer in danger, depending on your politics.


* Many many species of large mammals (incl. horse & camels) went extinct just after Neolithic hunters moved in to N. America ('proto-indians') so "modern" can extend further than you think. Probably Paleolithic technology would have been up to the mass extinction also. OTOH, Africa had no such events, so if you evolve while humans are evolving, you can stick around.


For the next PARF wildlife controversy, I suggest feral horses.

[Jeff Higgins]

Man has inextricably stuck his nose into things and it's simply way too late to just pull it back out and say "let nature run its course". Disaster would soon follow at a level no one wants to see. Our best bet for sustainable wildlife populations today is to follow sound, proven management policies. Wolf advocates simply refuse to come to terms with that. Adding insult to injury, the most vocal and active wolf advocates tend not to live in the affected areas. They have nothing at stake, no skin in the game, and no knowledge of modern management practices. All they have is emotion. And money - lots of money - to keep management in the courts, rather than with trained professionals.

[HardDrive]

+1 Jeff

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by 9dreizig

Anyone who thinks they only take the old and sick is foolish,, there aren't enough old and sick of any species to sustain a healthy wolf population

That is the primary delusion under which most of the PETA and ALF types live. Predators take primarily the young in their first year of life. Where this "old and sick" rot comes from is anyone's guess. Yes, predators kill the feeble and weak - but the vast majority of those feeble and weak that they kill are only feeble and weak because they are young, not old.

Maybe the feeble and weak minded would understand if we told them it's for the children...

[MT930]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Man has inextricably stuck his nose into things and it's simply way too late to just pull it back out and say "let nature run its course". Disaster would soon follow at a level no one wants to see. Our best bet for sustainable wildlife populations today is to follow sound, proven management policies. Wolf advocates simply refuse to come to terms with that. Adding insult to injury, the most vocal and active wolf advocates tend not to live in the affected areas. They have nothing at stake, no skin in the game, and no knowledge of modern management practices. All they have is emotion. And money - lots of money - to keep management in the courts, rather than with trained professionals.

Very True !!

I'm making a guess that RWebb lives in in a High rise in downtown Portland ?

Double Subscription to Ranger Rick

Never argue with Granolas they are always right.

[RWebb]

you are wrong on all counts

need another guess?

you are welcome to any point of view or bias you want - just don't try to disguise it as biology or any other facts

[ODDJOB UNO]

i'm just waiting for the local news to post a CHILD munched on or a GRANDMOTHER munched on by wolves here in az. and new messiko. its only a matter of time.


these re-introduced wolves show NO FEAR of humanoids that are HEAVILY ARMED eating their MRE's sitting under the pines in unit 27 east of alpine,az. overlooking a drainage. (2) of them came up from the west up the draw as we were faced south looking fer deer-skis.


when we saw movement the hair on my head stood up, and my buddy since he is follically challenged, the hair on his gorilla back stood at attention.



we waz cocked locked ready to rock and rollah as the ayatolla's of that damn pristine knoll. had they made a run on us, they was gonna be toast, cuz i aint giving my MRE to no damn wolfey.


as it was they merely amused themselves by watching us for about 15 minutes and then they ge-splitten.



after that we just looked at each other and said.........."so much for the deer-skis around here!"



dont fool yerselves they are "JUST" eating the infirmed the crippled the retarded the injured deer-skis and antelopezzz'. they are CLEANING THE HERDS OUT!



now for (1) mili-micro-pico second, think that WE cant find deer in ANY hunt unit after (10) damn days of hunting the HELL out of the unit, no other hunters seeing any sign whatso ever, then YOU are a MORON!


unit 27 was the 1st unit EVER in my life that at the very LEAST we should have seen FRESH SIGN, FRESH POO POO BEANS, or a stoopid freeking doe or fawn!


optic(optiks) are KEY HERE and at least 50% of the time we nail the hell out of them sleeping in the pucker bushes or in the juniper/oaks from afar. cuz we can and we're good.



so yes wolves are a part of the ecosystem, but the ecosystem was in a hell of alot better condition 125 years ago attested by the pics and racks from deer/elk/antelopezzz' across the state. hunting pressure/poaching/drought/fires/road-kills have all had a enormous impact on kritters.


now heres another get yer panties in a twist reality. ever since PETA and other tree hugging morons have stiffened laws on TRAPPING varmint populations HAVE EXPLODED, and guess what the yotes (the trickster) eat??????????????


lil baby elk, lil baby deer-skis, lil baby antelopezzz' and that really screws up the entire ecosystem when the lil itty bitty babies become coyote chum and never reach maturity FOR ME TO HUNT!



so there ya have it. because i am gonna hunt right on up til im in a freeking wheelchair with sidepipes on it and blast the living HELL out of every legal deer/elk/antelopezz/bear/mtn lion until i keel over from old age. cuz i can. and cuz I LIKE IT! and because MY LEGAL TAG SAYS I CAN!



or you can look at me and my fellow hunters at doing YOU armchair 1/4 backs A SERVICE. cuz everytime YOU drive down a rural road and i kill a critter that year................thats (1) less kritter, that just may come flying thru yer front windshield and totally screw up yer day or possibly yer life! think about DAT!

[stealthn]

You know the really sad thing is the wolves were getting hunted out in Montana, and years ago we (Canada) sent some of ours down to repopulate, now it goes around again...

If you are going to "thin" out the polulation, I suggest thining out everything that the wolves would have normally eaten that way the scales won't be tipped.

My two cents

[Buckterrier]

ODDDUCK, man can you spew gibberish. It's really amazing.

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by Buckterrier

ODDDUCK, man can you spew gibberish. It's really amazing.

ducky terrier..........................i know yer a doctorate in english composition, and to know my "gibberish" pisses you off...........................well that just makes this here place just that more ge-fun!


and as others before have complained, YOU are just another "WORD/SPILLING(spelling)wanna be COP, that just got run over by dat dem der FREIGHT TRAIN!


nanny nanny boo boo. yer mutha was a hamster and urine father smells of edelberries!


RAMA RAMA DING DONG!

[MBAtarga]

Originally Posted by MT930

The Other White Meat !

They are destroying our beautiful game animal population.


We have a season pretty restrictive

That pic is from the Northwest Territories not here.

Coyotes

Curious - why are they hung like that? Those don't appear to be just pelts, but the complete carcass.

[pitargue]

I wish they would reintroduce the Grizzly in California. It is the state animal and on the state flag.

[Buckterrier]

ODDDUCK- Every time you write a word you just re-enforce you're the King of Gibberish. And no, don't think so highly of yourself to think you even remotely piss me off.You're just a gnat on a camel's ass.

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by Buckterrier

ODDDUCK- Every time you write a word you just re-enforce you're the King of Gibberish. And no, don't think so highly of yourself to think you even remotely piss me off.You're just a gnat on a camel's ass.

duckyterrier..............have you EVAR seen a wolfey in the wild? have you EVAR smelled their urine? have you EVAR seen their tracks(sign)? have you EVAR determined by their FECES how long ago they were present?


have YOU ever gotten off yer azz and walked out of yer pompous connuticutt home and actually HUNTED? or you like just like r2d2esq and sit on the throne of the sun king?


do you EVEN know the genus species of these wolves? have you ever walked upon a wolf mtn/ lion kill and determined from sign which killed it?


or do you sit with martha stewart over tea and read the latest PETA magazines and then make pompous wildlife/hunting/ranching moronic remarks?


oh thats right............you were once a highly decorated U.S. fish and wildlife biologist, that owned a ranch on the side punching lil dawgies, and you got to see both sides of the wolf conundrum.


have you EVAR even been off the pavement in the WEST?


oh and by the wayyyyyy..............i have (1) BILL-YON posts here, i am on the board of directors at the EXCLUSIVE 'BUSHWOOD COUNTRY CLUB"(members only) and i fart in yer general direction!



oddjob uno..................putting POMPOUS/ARROGANT/IGNORANT azz people in THEIR place since 1957.

RAMA RAMA DING DONG!