Was I an ass??

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

What is wrong with you people? The dealer wants to make a profit. OH MY GOD! .

I agree the concept of profit is very American and irrelevant to this discussion. Our economic way of life is based upon healthy businesses. It is a shame the way some industries operate in the name of profit.

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

I see guys on Pelican bragging about the great deal they got at a yard sale on stereo speakers or some other item. Not one of you said "Hey, you lied to that guy by not telling him he could have sold those speakers for 3 times the money". No, you just smiled and told the Pelican "good job". .

Read the thread about the Doctor who sold the 190SL for $10,000 to a member. I would love to compare names and opinions thread to thread......

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

This whole conversation was started by ND who wanted to know if he was doing the right thing. Next thing we see, is everyone judging what the dealer did. I guess in the world of some Pelicans, 2 wrongs do make it right.

The dealer did play a part here but to me this was a question of systemic behavior and how we need to adapt or we are operating at a disadvantage. ND might have behaved in a manner that many find less than honorable but IMO He behaved as he should have given the way the system (car sales) operates.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Out of curiosity, kaisen: do most dealers still tack on a huge lot fee to every deal before they figure in sales commissions? Are doc fees still set in stone or are some stores willing to negotiate on them?

Commissions and pay plans can be simple or complex.... there's infinite ways to write them. Some dealers have a 'pack' they add to a car and calculate the salesperson's commission on anything above that figure. It's really just a way to advertise higher commission rates.... "We pay 40% commissions!!", but 40% of eveerything over invoice and a $200 pack is probably the same as 20% paid from net less holdback.

As you may gather from my other posts, I believe salespeople should be paid based on performance, not profit. In a one-price non-negotiating dealership, the best way is to pay a flat amount per unit with incentives for volume. That way if it is in the customer's best interest to buy a $5000 car rather than a $30,000 car, there's little incentive to 'sell' them something they don't need..... they just help them 'buy' what fits. Chances are the salesperson put as much effort into selling the cheap car anyway.

Nowadays, dealer 'doc fees' are state regulated. Not in all states, but most. At one time (Florida comes to mind) advertised sale prices on new cars were ridiculously low to get people in the door, only to charge them a $795 documentation fee. In most midwestern states (where I've run stores) the fees are capped at $50 or $75 max, and you must publicly state what your fee is and EVERYONE pays the same fee. You can't negotiate it. Of course, some people just demand the $50 off the price of the car. But 99% of people understand the costs the dealer incurs for buying all of the state-mandated paperwork and titling and registration fees and labor. Otherwise they'd say: "Here's your title. YOU go stand in line at the DMV and fill out THEIR forms. Good luck"

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

It's pretty simple really, if car dealers want to be treated with honesty and respect then they should start doing the same to their customers. Of course car dealers aren't really interested in being honest, they want to make max profit. Unfortunately in the car biz that means screwing over every customer you can.

I really don't have an issue with how dealers work as long as everyone understands that a car negotiation is a no holds barred affair.

Sad. I'll treat you well if YOU treat me well FIRST!! Is this the way life works?

As many of us have stated in this thread: There are several good dealers. Vote with your feet. Vote with your checkbook. Do business where you are treated ethically. If we all did this, you remove the incentive from dealers (or any other business) to enlist bad practices.... or they will go out of business. Yes, it does work this way.

Originally Posted by Macroni

ND might have behaved in a manner that many find less than honorable but IMO He behaved as he should have given the way the system (car sales) operates.

Keep doing what you're doing, keep getting what you're getting.
Break the cycle. Demand better.

Would you pay, say, $200 more on a $25,000 transaction to be treated with integrity and respect? To start a long-term relationship with a company that treats you well and shoots straight?

It takes two.....

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Sad. I'll treat you well if YOU treat me well FIRST!! Is this the way life works?

No, it's not how life works but it IS how dealing with a car dealership works. The dealers are the ones who have placed themselves in this position, not the customers. I'm glad you are trying to change things from your end, I would likely be a repeat customer at your dealership knowing that I would have a relatively pain and hassle free experience and would get a reasonable deal. Unfortunately the other 99.99% of car dealers out there don't operate that way. That's why "voting with your feet" isn't always an option. If every dealer in a reasonable radius from your house operates in the usual way, how are you to get a car?

Honestly, my perception is that public opinion of car dealers is about a hair above personal injury attorneys. It is going to take a concerted effort on the part of the car dealers to decide to collectively change the way they do business and try to change the public perception of them.

[kaisen]

I had a conversation with a friend about ND's original story, and she posed an interesting twist:

You go in to a dealership to shop for a specific car. The exact car you want is on the showfloor. You tell the salesperson you'll take it, for the advertised price... the sale tag hanging from the mirror. He's excited. You shake hands on it and tell him you'll be back the next day to take delivery.

When you return, the car is gone. You ask the salesperson what gives. He tells you that an hour or so after you left, someone came in that just had to have THAT car. Originally they offered $100 more than sale price, but the salesperson told them that they wouldn't break the deal. Then they offered $500 more. At that price, the manager decided to sell the car to the higher offer.

But it's okay right? They didn't sign anything.

I *GUARANTEE* that if that happened to anyone, they'd be all over the internet talking about honor, integrity, and ethics of the dealership.

But here at Pelican, we've already decided that those practices are okay. Dog eat dog.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Would you pay, say, $200 more on a $25,000 transaction to be treated with integrity and respect? To start a long-term relationship with a company that treats you well and shoots straight?

Why should I have to pay $200 more to be treated w/ integrity and respect as a customer I should get that for free.

Originally Posted by kaisen

It takes two.....

It really doesn't take two, it takes one. The auto industry IMO has trained us to be defensive. It is their plight to win the consumer's trust. Remember, fool me once.......

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by kaisen

I had a conversation with a friend about ND's original story, and she posed an interesting twist:

You go in to a dealership to shop for a specific car. The exact car you want is on the showfloor. You tell the salesperson you'll take it, for the advertised price... the sale tag hanging from the mirror. He's excited. You shake hands on it and tell him you'll be back the next day to take delivery.

When you return, the car is gone. You ask the salesperson what gives. He tells you that an hour or so after you left, someone came in that just had to have THAT car. Originally they offered $100 more than sale price, but the salesperson told them that they wouldn't break the deal. Then they offered $500 more. At that price, the manager decided to sell the car to the higher offer.

But it's okay right? They didn't sign anything.

I *GUARANTEE* that if that happened to anyone, they'd be all over the internet talking about honor, integrity, and ethics of the dealership.

But here at Pelican, we've already decided that those practices are okay. Dog eat dog.

Actually I wouldn't be upset. If I didn't sign papers or put money down it is still their car to sell. Once I sign a contract or place a deposit, THEN I would expect them to hold the car for me. That's my honest answer.

You probably are going to think I am saying this because of my personal stake in this discussion but I really meant it when I said that I consider car deals to be in a different realm vs regular deals with other people or vendors. To me, you hold your nose and wade into the slop with them once every 6-7 years and then go on with your life.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by kaisen

I had a conversation with a friend about ND's original story, and she posed an interesting twist:

You go in to a dealership to shop for a specific car. The exact car you want is on the showfloor. You tell the salesperson you'll take it, for the advertised price... the sale tag hanging from the mirror. He's excited. You shake hands on it and tell him you'll be back the next day to take delivery.

When you return, the car is gone. You ask the salesperson what gives. He tells you that an hour or so after you left, someone came in that just had to have THAT car. Originally they offered $100 more than sale price, but the salesperson told them that they wouldn't break the deal. Then they offered $500 more. At that price, the manager decided to sell the car to the higher offer.

But it's okay right? They didn't sign anything.

I *GUARANTEE* that if that happened to anyone, they'd be all over the internet talking about honor, integrity, and ethics of the dealership.

But here at Pelican, we've already decided that those practices are okay. Dog eat dog.

But in that situation, the buyer didn't do anything wrong.

In ND's situation, the seller did do something wrong. The seller pulled a "bait and switch" type lie to get ND to the dealership in the first place.

So the whole deal was dirty, and the dealership got exactly what they deserved for their dirty tactics: A "No Sale."

If the seller in ND's situation hadn't lied, the transaction would have been done and this thread wouldn't exist.

I simply see no injustice or unfairness in ND's situation.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by kaisen

...Would you pay, say, $200 more on a $25,000 transaction to be treated with integrity and respect? To start a long-term relationship with a company that treats you well and shoots straight?

Now that's very interesting. And very revealing.

Let's say I'm considering buying a car from you.

And let's say that you flash your best car salesman's smile at me.

And you say to me, I'm pleased to have you as a customer and I'm going to treat you with integrity and respect so that we can start a long-term relationship with my company, which will treat you well and will shoot straight.

And for this sterling service, for going all out to treat you honestly and with respect, I will charge you an additional $200.

Yeah, right.

Oh, wait! But you wouldn't come right out and tell me that, would you?

Yeah, right.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

No, it's not how life works but it IS how dealing with a car dealership works.

No. Life is life. Everything we do every day is life. Even buying cars.

The dealers are the ones who have placed themselves in this position, not the customers.

Customers like you perpetuate and validate the practices. Why should they be honorable when customers like you are willing to walk away from a deal? If it's okay for you, why shouldn't they? Maybe they should apply more pressure to make sure you actually sign something THAT DAY. Oh wait, you wouldn't like that.

I'm glad you are trying to change things from your end, I would likely be a repeat customer at your dealership knowing that I would have a relatively pain and hassle free experience and would get a reasonable deal. Unfortunately the other 99.99% of car dealers out there don't operate that way. That's why "voting with your feet" isn't always an option. If every dealer in a reasonable radius from your house operates in the usual way, how are you to get a car?

It's not just me. All Autonation stores do not negotiate. All CarMax stores do not negotiate. All Saturn dealerships did not negotitate.

In my metro area (Minneapolis) most of the 'major' dealer groups no longer negotiate: Morries, Walser, Apple, Tousley, Rydell..... represents every major brand. There's only ONE Mazda dealer in the Twin Cities that negotiates... the others do not.

I helped most of them come up with their processes and take the leap of faith. I will start a new thread on it.

So, every Mazda dealer treated you like crap? There are eight Mazda dealers in the Dallas metro (within 50 miles of downtown). So all eight were unscrupulous sleazebags? I thought you dealt with two or three. I would bet that at least one of them would have treated you well. Then it's your diligence to help them understand that you'd buy from them as long as the price is reasonable. Buy the dealership first. Work on the price last. But you put "price first" by shotgunning a email asking for best price.

Reality: They all paid the same for the car you want. They can all sell them for the same if they wanted to. There is no volume discount. Big and little dealers are invoiced the same amount. If you worked smarter at getting a good price from a dealer you liked, I'm assured you could have made it happen.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Customers like you perpetuate and validate the practices.
.

Actually, but not ultimately rewarding this dealership with a sale, ND hopefully helped to invalidate the lying, bait and switch tactics they used to fraudulently lure him into their dealership.

When you fraudulently induce someone to come and do business with you, and they end up not doing it, you got what you deserved.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by McLovin

In ND's situation, the seller did do something wrong..... So the whole deal was dirty, and the dealership got exactly what they deserved for their dirty tactics: A "No Sale."......

Originally Posted by McLovin

Actually, but not ultimately rewarding this dealership with a sale, ND hopefully helped to invalidate the lying, bait and switch tactics they used to fraudulently lure him into their dealership.

When you fraudulently induce someone to come and do business with you, and they end up not doing it, you get what you deserved.

Yes, an eye for an eye really teaches people (or businesses) a lesson..... NOT

[Porsche-O-Phile]

In this case the dealer did something far worse than lying - he stole someone's time.

To me, that's far worse.

Money can always be recouped. Time can't. To steal/waste someone's time by trying to "get them in" when they wouldn't otherwise is something I would not take kindly to at all.

[Nathans_Dad]

Kaisen,

I contacted 5 dealers in my local area. One refused to give me a quote over the phone and would only deal in person. The second did not have the vehicle I wanted on the lot. The third offered me $10k on my trade and wanted $36k for a car that stickered for $29k but they put aftermarket wheels and leather on. No thanks. The fourth was dealer A, the fifth was dealer B.

Oh, by the way dealer B is an autonation dealer and he sure as hell negotiated!!!

By the way, an interesting point was made above. If dealer A had honored the price given to me over the phone in the first place ($27700) then there wouldn't have been any issue at all and they would have a sale.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Kaisen,

I contacted 5 dealers in my local area. One refused to give me a quote over the phone and would only deal in person. The second did not have the vehicle I wanted on the lot. The third offered me $10k on my trade and wanted $36k for a car that stickered for $29k but they put aftermarket wheels and leather on. No thanks. The fourth was dealer A, the fifth was dealer B.

Oh, by the way dealer B is an autonation dealer and he sure as hell negotiated!!!

By the way, an interesting point was made above. If dealer A had honored the price given to me over the phone in the first place ($27700) then there wouldn't have been any issue at all and they would have a sale.

Yep. You really worked hard for the best treatment. REALLY hard.
Sending out a shotgun email is a surefire way to end up working with a dipshot salesperson at a dealer that has nothing to offer but price.

And one dealer didn't have it on their lot!? Really!? Because the dealer with the "BEST PRICE" was going to locate one from another lot anyway.

If the first or second were great dealers, you wouldn't know. And there are three more in your area you could have tried if it were really important to you. It wasn't. Price was.

If you really want to be treated well, *I'll say it again* FIRST choose the salesperson and/or dealership, THEN get them to get the right vehicle at the right price.

[Nathans_Dad]

Ok I'll do that next time. As soon as I find an honest car dealership, I'll let you know!

I'm surprised you are offended by the email method, most commentators I have read say it is the best way to get a good price without all the dealership hassle and games. Of course, the dealers hate it! The Internet manager I dealt with at dealer B was great to work with and he will be my first call next time.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Ok I'll do that next time. As soon as I find an honest car dealership, I'll let you know!

You work hard to find the right car, correct? Put some effort into finding the right place to buy it. We all understand the value of a good Realtor. A good dealer is just as important. Ask around. Visit their websites. Read their ads. Visit their facilities. Look at their awards. Look at their service lanes and look at their pricing.

Dealerships are different. The cars are not (if new).

I'm surprised you are offended by the email method, most commentators I have read say it is the best way to get a good price without all the dealership hassle and games. Of course, the dealers hate it!

I didn't say I was offended..... it's just a lame (dare I say cowardly?) way of doing it. You want to put forth very little effort buying a car, but expect them to put in lots of effort for very little return. If you DO buy a car from them, it will be a nothing deal, and the odds of you ever returning or referring are next to nothing. But the odds of never hearing from you again are even greater. Which is why the greenest of green salespeople get those leads. They may answer 50 of those emails with their best price and not hear back from one. Not exaggerating.

The Internet manager I dealt with at dealer B was great to work with and he will be my first call next time.

Awesome! Glad you found someone you liked. Next time do your homework and give him the opportunity to earn your business. And tell your friends and colleagues about him.

[Nathans_Dad]

Does it really take all that much work to answer an email? I would think it would be preferable to spending 5 hours beating down someone to sell a car.

I mean the guy answering my email just has to look up their cost and shoot out an email with their offer. He is then free to go see other "ups" who may walk in. I reply with where my other offers are at and he counters. Then he goes and sees another "up". In the end we come to a price, I walk in and sign the papers. He just has to spend maybe 30 mins total on my deal and makes his commission. Yes the commission is perhaps less than what he could get the traditional way but I would think the volume would make up for that.

Besides, how long is the average lifespan of a car salesman?? If I buy a car today, what are the chances of me getting the same guy in 7 years? Not very likely. So, why not go straight for price? It's more important to me to have a good mechanic I will use multiple times over 7 years than a car salesman I will see once and likely never again.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

In this case the dealer did something far worse than lying - he stole someone's time.

To me, that's far worse.

Money can always be recouped. Time can't. To steal/waste someone's time by trying to "get them in" when they wouldn't otherwise is something I would not take kindly to at all.

+1, if I were ND I'd invoice the lying POS dealer for his time.

I have a rule when dealing with dealers. As soon as things start to go south, I just walk out. Not worth the time or aggravation.

My best luck has been with fleet or internet departments. Invoice + a fixed amount (usually a couple hundred), little or no negotiation, no screwing around. I had one genuinely good car buying experience in my life, unfortunately it was with a dealer 50 miles away, so giving them more of my business is pretty inconvenient.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Does it really take all that much work to answer an email? I would think it would be preferable to spending 5 hours beating down someone to sell a car.

Yes, sure it does. Maybe only 10-15 minutes to make sure the details are correct. But re-read what I said about it taking 50 responses to get one answer back. Hey, that's only 10 hours of work. And that's not a sale, that's a response. I am NOT making this up. The average internet salesperson gets over 100 *NEW* leads a day and that's considered the most they can handle before the dealer creates another position. But that salesperson does not SELL one car a day. Think of that. One every other day they work is a good performance.

He just has to spend maybe 30 mins total on my deal and makes his commission. Yes the commission is perhaps less than what he could get the traditional way but I would think the volume would make up for that.

That's just YOUR deal..... but there were 50-75 other no-sales he answered the same way. The closing ratio is absolutely horrible. The volume does not make up for it. Sucks to be him.

Besides, how long is the average lifespan of a car salesman?? If I buy a car today, what are the chances of me getting the same guy in 7 years? Not very likely. So, why not go straight for price? It's more important to me to have a good mechanic I will use multiple times over 7 years than a car salesman I will see once and likely never again.

Yes, and that's why I stressed 'dealership' over 'salesperson' in most responses. Your dealer will likely still be there. And be the mechanic you rely on in the interim. At the very least for warranty work.

But a good to great salesperson will be there in 7 years. Your referrals will help him stay.

There are always a couple salespeople at any dealership that have been there more than ten years. This is one of the things to look for when 'shopping' for a dealer.

[kaisen]

And almost all internet sales departments do not take "ups" from the showfloor. They aren't allowed. On purpose.