Planes,planes and more planes

[pwd72s]

New to me...great stuff...thanks.

[Flieger]

The pilot who gave a presentation flew those (and FW-190s for a time). He said they were a bit unstable, but maneuverable as a result so he liked the plane.

The thing was the wings fell off on the early protoypes due to bad glue. And then they started putting less experienced pilots in them, with hard ice encrusted snow banks (plowed) on the sides of the runway. They had to have a cleanup truck on the side of the runway. If the plane took off successfully the aircraft passed the test for newly manufactured ones, if not, then they failed and the crash truck was sent to pick up the pieces. Or something like that.

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by azasadny

"Like a flea, but watch out!"

Cool ! I like that !

[944Larry]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

I have a lot of flight time, even a fair amount in experimental flight test, but believe I would stay on the ground and watch someone else do this one. Even a BD-5J jet powered A/C would prolly be more stable!

You might be right. I'm going to research that thing first chance I get. Seems like I remember it being made cheaply and easy to fly for low time pilots. Read suicide mission in there somewhere. Don't know if any even saw combat. I believe I'd try and fly it though. Hell, I'm 60.

[944Larry]

The more I read about this thing the more amazed I am.

Heinkel He 162 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[pavulon]

Fw-190s are good look'n birds!!

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by pavulon

Fw-190s are good look'n birds!!

Yup, one of my favs, up there with the Spitfire and P-51D. But I like the early models best, not the water cooled long noses.

[Hawkeye's-911T]

By Flieger: The thing was the wings fell off on the early protoypes due to bad glue.

I remember a conversation I had many years ago with a WWII veteran RAF Spitfire pilot. He referred to the FW-190 as the "Butcher Bird" and recalled the advice given to any pilot who had the bad luck to find one of those buggers on his tail. It was "Don't climb, don't dive, just turn". The Spitfire could pull tighter & the Germans were very wary of their wings' tendency to fail in high rate turns. The same problem was faced by the pilots of the Me/Bf -109's. I am with you too Max, the Supermarine Spifire Mk. 5 & the P-51D Mustang are 2 of best looking warbirds of their day. Both are good airshow crowd favourites.

Cheers
JB

[Flieger]

The FW-190 had metal wings, or at least Aluminum wing spars, but they were bolted on to the fuselage IIRC. So the glue was not failing but maybe the bolts? The early models had short wings so the roll rate was good but turning radius not so much (loosing lots of energy). The later long noses like the Ta-152 (I think that was the number) had long wings as well so it was much better at high altitude, so it ought to be able to turn a bit better than the early ones.

[Jim727]

Of all the WWII warbirds I lust to fly, first is the FW-190 (and the wings stayed on them just fine). For choice two, I'd add the P-40 - because of it's AVG heritage more than any other reason.

Have a friend who flew Recce Bf-109s. He mentioned that escaping a Spitfire was not all that hard. Because the 109 had fuel injection and the Spit had carbs, a pushover would fuel starve the Spit or a sharp 90deg. left bank and pull would cause the Spit to lose some RPM until the carb caught up. Every aircraft has its strengths and weaknesses. A pilot needed to know his opponent.

For 'wing' separation you're probably thinking of one of the Bf-109 models (E, I think) when Messerschmitt removed the horizontal stab struts and the structure wasn't strong enough so some of the tails separated under heavy load. Fixed with the subsequent revision. There was also a German Mosquito which was, like the RAF Mosquito, made of wood but had serious problems with the laminating glue. Didn't work out so well.

[tcar]

Originally Posted by Flieger

The FW-190 had metal wings, or at least Aluminum wing spars, but they were bolted on to the fuselage IIRC. So the glue was not failing but maybe the bolts?

He was talking about the he-162, the single engined jet that was mostly wood.

FW-190 was a pretty tough plane.

[Flieger]

Good to have another opinion here. I had not heard of FW-190 wings failing, either. I had actually heard that it performed pretty well at low altitudes. I think the Spitfire could turn tighter though.

[Jim727]

Flieger - Depends on the respective model. The first 190s would eat the then current Spit. later Spits performed much better, but each had a 'preferred' altitude for combat.

[Flieger]

Yes, the Spitfire had so many Mks that I can't keep track of them. FW-190 had plenty of revisions but the big one was the change to the water cooled inline engine and that is easy to spot. The unfortunate thing was it got heavier each time. I prefer the early models for that reason. The Spitfire, on the other hand, I like the later models just as much or more than the early ones. And the P-51D is my favorite, I don't really care for the earlier models of that.

[Jim727]

For you P-51 fans (and anyone who has respect for the WWII generation) I highly recommend the DVD from: Gray Eagles Foundation

There's no way to describe just how good the story is.

[tcar]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Yes, the Spitfire had so many Mks that I can't keep track of them. FW-190 had plenty of revisions but the big one was the change to the water cooled inline engine and that is easy to spot. The unfortunate thing was it got heavier each time. I prefer the early models for that reason.

The reason for that change, I believe was that the BMW radial had overheating issues in the FW... some of them even had a fan in the cowling in front of the engine like a 911 to help.

So the change was to the Mercedes inverted water-cooled inline like the Me-109.

The one in post #5 is watercooled, the one in post #33 is an air cooled radial.

[Flieger]

The first prototype was cooking the pilot's feet, but that was where they had tried to reduce drag with a much more extensive, tighter cowling with the turbine style fan behind the small slit in around the spinner. The early production models went to a conventional, NACA style cowl but retained the fan anyway. They did not have cooling problems to my knowledge.

The FW-190 D and later used a Junkers Jumo inverted V12 with a round radiator that made them look like radial engines when fitted to bombers.

[Flieger]

Both photos are of air-cooled radial models. I know for a fact that the one in post #5 is a replica with a Pratt+Whitney radial but it needs extra oil coolers which you see on the wings. The performance and aerodynamics is therefore not up to the FW-190 A2 and BMW 801 series combination.

[Jim727]

The prototype 190 was extremely tightly cowled and created big heat problems in the cockpit. Before production the cowl/spinner combination was changed and a few other mods made in the airframe that moved the 801 engine slightly forward and made for a cooler cockpit. All the aircooled (801-engined) 190s had fans such as you can see in the photo above.

The Doras used both the Jumo 213 and Daimler 603 engines; the Ta-152 used the Daimler 603.

[Jim727]

You guys beat me to it.

Flieger - the pic in post 33 is an original 190 with BMW 801 engine. It flies.