Pats already accused of cheating!

[wdfifteen]

^^
huh??

[Lapkritis]

Yup - no doubt that was the squeeze/sting initiation point by the NFL. There are a lot of unanswered questions.

- How long during the first half were the balls in play?
- Were the balls filled using heated air within the rules?
- Did the league conduct this as a premeditated sting under direction of commissioner Goodell?

The point I'm making is the haters are quick to judgement without hearing all the information. They're assuming like asses will tend to do. Let's hear what the independent investigators find and determine if they're assuming their way along, too.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Sad that the Haterade drinkers out there are making such an issue of this. It's taking away from what really could be an awesome Super Bowl. There's a lot of potential for this one to be great but the haters are so blinded by it they can't see anything else.

That's the thing, when it comes to sports team hating, no one needs a scandal to hate the team they hate. It helps, though.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

Yup - no doubt that was the squeeze/sting initiation point by the NFL. There are a lot of unanswered questions.

- How long during the first half were the balls in play?
- Were the balls filled using heated air within the rules?
- Did the league conduct this as a premeditated sting under direction of commissioner Goodell?

The point I'm making is the haters are quick to judgement without hearing all the information. They're assuming like asses will tend to do. Let's hear what the independent investigators find and determine if they're assuming their way along, too.

The thing is, 2 of your 3 questions have been answered.
The Patriots footballs were taken out of play when the Colts linebacker reported to a sideline official that the ball he caught seemed under inflated. And the third would seem to be answered by the fact that the Colts balls were deemed acceptable for play when no Patriots ball could be found to be after the t.v. timeout. That is unless you think the Colts used cooler air to fill their footballs.

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by cabmando

The thing is, 2 of your 3 questions have been answered.
The Patriots footballs were taken out of play when the Colts linebacker reported to a sideline official that the ball he caught seemed under inflated. And the third would seem to be answered by the fact that the Colts balls were deemed acceptable for play when no Patriots ball could be found to be after the t.v. timeout. That is unless you think the Colts used cooler air to fill their footballs.

I wouldn't be surprised, if there's no limitation on air temperature entering the ball, if the air from a hand dryer in the bathroom was blown on the compressor during filling... taking temperatures entering the ball well over 125F.

Still waiting on official answers. Locker Room attendant is an interesting lead... although dude is allowed to take a leak.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Everyone is focusing on Brady but maybe it was a running back?

Patriots Fumble at a

Or maybe the Patriots are simply a better coached team.

This is most interesting. I almost missed this.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

^^
huh??

Try turning your volume up. It might help.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

I wouldn't be surprised, if there's no limitation on air temperature entering the ball, if the air from a hand dryer in the bathroom was blown on the compressor during filling... taking temperatures entering the ball well over 125F.

Still waiting on official answers. Locker Room attendant is an interesting lead... although dude is allowed to take a leak.

I guess there is no point discussing compression heating with you. You don't need to heat the air before the compressor to make hot compressed air.

[cabmandone]

" Blount fumbled every 51.8 plays with the Buccaneers and Steelers, but only every 73 plays with New England."

THERE is the real conspiracy. The Patriots sent Blount to the Steelers to screw up their chances. He took Le'Veon Bell out for some weed and feed, did his damage then went back home. Grrrrr.

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by red-beard

I guess there is no point discussing compression heating with you. You don't need to heat the air before the compressor to make hot compressed air.

Correct - no point as I have a pretty good understanding.

Starting with hot air at the inlet certainly helps with higher output temps... especially when inlet air temp exceeds efficiency curve for output air temp of the pump (under normal conditions/ambient).

I do understand compression heating... I built my first intercooled forced induction car 15yrs ago.

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by cabmando

" Blount fumbled every 51.8 plays with the Buccaneers and Steelers, but only every 73 plays with New England."

THERE is the real conspiracy. The Patriots sent Blount to the Steelers to screw up their chances. He took Le'Veon Bell out for some weed and feed, did his damage then went back home. Grrrrr.

LOL

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by red-beard

I guess there is no point discussing compression heating with you. You don't need to heat the air before the compressor to make hot compressed air.

The types of compressors in your video link are also commonly used for air brushing by hobbyists.

The compressor head will easily run temps at or over 125 after a few minutes.

[stomachmonkey]

OK, so how about this.

Not all Patriots balls were under inflated and there is no indication that all under inflated balls were deflated by the same amount. I keep seeing "up to 2 psi"

James has shown that a ball filled with air at 125 degrees could end up under inflated in the conditions that day.

All balls, Patriots and Colts filled at the same time.

The first 12 filled balls, when the compressor was running cooler, went to the Colts.

The 13th ball filled went to the Patriots as well as the rest which were filled with hotter air since the compressor was running longer.

Makes sense to me.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Nope. Even a cold compressor will make the same temperature output air based on the amount of compression. The length of time that a particular slug of air is in contact with the compressor's piston (hot or cold) is negligible, as would be the effect of any thermal radiation as a result impacting the output air temp.

A cold turbocharger heats the air just as much as a hot one (to use another analogy). It doesn't matter.

If the Pats were smart (and I'm guessing they are), they used heated input air, that is then compressed (heating it more via the PV=nRT formula - ideal gas law) and the Colts' balls use regular room / ambient temperature air. This means the Pats' balls have a larger delta-T between the air temp inside the ball and ambient, which equates (again, via the ideal gas law) to a greater loss in pressure.

Within the rules. I see no issue with it if this is indeed what some staffer decided to do on his / her own.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Nope. Even a cold compressor will make the same temperature output air based on the amount of compression. The length of time that a particular slug of air is in contact with the compressor's piston (hot or cold) is negligible, as would be the effect of any thermal radiation as a result impacting the output air temp.

A cold turbocharger heats the air just as much as a hot one (to use another analogy). It doesn't matter.

If the Pats were smart (and I'm guessing they are), they used heated input air, that is then compressed (heating it more via the PV=nRT formula - ideal gas law) and the Colts' balls use regular room / ambient temperature air. This means the Pats' balls have a larger delta-T between the air temp inside the ball and ambient, which equates (again, via the ideal gas law) to a greater loss in pressure.

Within the rules. I see no issue with it if this is indeed what some staffer decided to do on his / her own.

Every one of those tankless compressors I've used has required an inline moisture trap to prevent them from spitting water caused by the hot air condensing in the line.

Use whatever fancy science computer stuff you want.

I'm going with my theory cause I'm rooting for the Patriots and it works for me so stop trying to harsh my mellow.

[red-beard]

Sorry Jeff, but the compressor cylinders get hot as a MF pretty quick. The cylinder exit is usually through a section of the head with a large heat sink with fins.

And SM: definitely have to worry about water drop out as the air cools along the lines, etc. For a football, we're not compressing the air as much as an air tool. And dewpoint is not linear with pressure: see the steam tables, they are the same.

And this is the reason you should check pressure levels on tires after getting them installed. As the air cools down, it will reduce the pressure.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I agree but is the air in contact with that stuff long enough for it to make an appreciable difference in output temperature? I'd think not - the slug of air is only in the cylinder for a fraction of a second so I wouldn't think that there'd be a heck of a lot of thermal transfer going on (metal to air). Of course if someone can show a way this could happen I certainly could be wrong here. I just don't see a lot of thermal transfer happening between the hot metal to the air (or vice-versa) where it'd make a difference.

Air compressors I've used take a while for the finned area around the piston to get hot, which I imagine is because it takes a lot of cycles of compressive heating of the air inside to warm up the metal (again tending to lend validity to there not being a lot of transfer there). And a lot might be due to simple friction (piston-cylinder) rather than compressive heating effect of the air inside anyway.

Bottom line is I'd bet 99% of the temperature of the output air has to do with compressive heating effect and 1% (if that) due to thermal transfer between the heated-up case and the air in the cylinder.

Yes, no?

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Sorry Jeff, but the compressor cylinders get hot as a MF pretty quick. The cylinder exit is usually through a section of the head with a large heat sink with fins.

And SM: definitely have to worry about water drop out as the air cools along the lines, etc. For a football, we're not compressing the air as much as an air tool. And dewpoint is not linear with pressure: see the steam tables, they are the same.

And this is the reason you should check pressure levels on tires after getting them installed. As the air cools down, it will reduce the pressure.

When you run those for air brushes you don't put a lot of pressure through them either.

You set your regulator for max 30 psi.

I mentioned the condensation as it makes it pretty obvious there is a temperature difference between what comes out of those things and ambient.

One thing I do not recall about them is how they deal with not being used while running. Do they have a blow off valve set up to bleed air off when the line is shut? Or do they just not intake any more air meaning what's in the head just keeps getting hotter?

[cabmandone]

Sweet mother of pearl! Now someone claims the NFL officials never tested the balls at all before the game.

I say we waterboard Brady, Belichick, the ball boy, the NFL officials and toss in LeGarrett Blount just because I'm mad at him and get to the bottom of this once and for all.

[stomachmonkey]

Opps.

Apparently the refs can just feel them and approve them.

A gauge is not required?

This is getting interesting.