Fathers matter

[Seahawk]

From another thread.

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I can't help but take a look at second order stats.

Some real eye openers: Percent of unmarried teen birth rose from around 12% in 1950 to over 90% now. Ouch.

Also, over 26% of teen births are for a second child.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr49/nvsr49_10.pdf



Then from Kach's Link: The U.S. has one of the highest teen birthrates among developed countries, even with continued declines over the last two decades. Only two other developed countries had a teen birthrate that exceeded that of the U.S. – Bulgaria at 41.7 and Romania at 35.2. Denmark, Japan, the Netherlands and Switzerland had birthrates that were one-fifth of the most recent U.S. rate of 26.6.

I am very happy the birth rate for teenage women is headed south, but there is a long way to go to fix the ill that is out of wedlock pregnancies for teens.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

What exactly did you find "inane"? The fact that I'd prefer to see BOTH parties to a child held financially accountable for his or her upbringing (not just one)? For one I see right through your postings here - you want to use this issue to make a case for free* birth control for women and of course the ability to take a swipe at males and paint them as irresponsible is an added bonus, right?

There's a very simple rule that would work - inexpensively - for reducing unplanned pregnancies. Educate your daughters to say "no way we're having sex unless you wear a condom every single time". How effing hard is that? Condoms are cheap -far cheaper than IUDs or birth control pills. We're not talking about the <1% of the time they don't work here either. Between just saying "no" and saying "not without a rubber" it's pretty damn unlikely a woman will find herself pregnant. If you're not convinced and want to provide "free"* birth control to women so they won't have to be burdened with having a backbone then go right ahead - feel free to make a donation to the doctors office of your choice. As for me, I ain't paying for someone else to go sleep around. If someone does and gets pregnant, it isn't my problem. I pay for my own kids - they can pay for theirs. If those kids end up in a less advantaged situation that's also not my problem.

* "free" to them - as in, "people like me are expected to pay for it so they can get it for free and be as irresponsible and promiscuous as they want without consequence"

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by Baz

Yeah...give 'em pills.......because they are too stupid to learn from a worksheet.

I got it now.....

I didn't say they were too stupid to learn from a worksheet, I am saying that free contraception works, period. Every legitimate study on teenaged pregnancy says exactly the same thing - the current statistics which show teenaged pregnancy plummeting in impoverished areas show that the teenaged girls are all doing two things - getting birth control and they have access to medical care.

So, because absentee fathers are a long term problem with no a whole lot of easy solutions, lets get going with the solution that does seem to be working with regards to teenage pregnancy.

And guess what - fewer teenaged moms now means fewer teenaged moms in the future - one of the factors with regards to teenage pregnancy is if the girls mom was a teen when she first got pregnant -in fact, it is as important as fathers who are/aren't present. The leading factor is poverty, followed by those two factors.

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

What exactly did you find "inane"? The fact that I'd prefer to see BOTH parties to a child held financially accountable for his or her upbringing (not just one)? For one I see right through your postings here - you want to use this issue to make a case for free* birth control for women and of course the ability to take a swipe at males and paint them as irresponsible is an added bonus, right?

There's a very simple rule that would work - inexpensively - for reducing unplanned pregnancies. Educate your daughters to say "no way we're having sex unless you wear a condom every single time". How effing hard is that? Condoms are cheap -far cheaper than IUDs or birth control pills. We're not talking about the <1% of the time they don't work here either. Between just saying "no" and saying "not without a rubber" it's pretty damn unlikely a woman will find herself pregnant. If you're not convinced and want to provide "free"* birth control to women so they won't have to be burdened with having a backbone then go right ahead - feel free to make a donation to the doctors office of your choice. As for me, I ain't paying for someone else to go sleep around. If someone does and gets pregnant, it isn't my problem. I pay for my own kids - they can pay for theirs. If those kids end up in a less advantaged situation that's also not my problem.

* "free" to them - as in, "people like me are expected to pay for it so they can get it for free and be as irresponsible and promiscuous as they want without consequence"

So, most teenaged moms grow up to be not-so-great parents, often absent, sometimes drug users or alcoholics, they have a variety of issues. Who do you think is going to tell those teenaged daughters of those moms not to have kids - those 'not so great moms'? Most of these 'families' don't even come close to representing any sort of 'family life'. They don't sit down to family dinners and talk about their day, the kids grab a frozen pizza, toss it in the microwave while mom is at the bar. That mom isn't around to impart such wisdom as 'make sure he wears a condom'. What fantasy world are you living in POP?

And actually all birth control works really well - it doesn't have to be the pill. In fact, if you look at the study I linked it referenced the baskets of free condoms at neighborhood health clinics as having a huge impact on the teen pregnancy rate in those neighborhoods. I think you are thinking that Baz's statement regarding the pill was mine. I believe I have only referenced birth control, and condoms are birth control, and are the easiest for teens to get - often they can just walk into the local clinic and just grab a bunch, no real questions asked.

oh, believe me, I give plenty (both in time and money) with regards to this problem. We have discussed this before. I worked very hard on a program in Colorado where birth control (IUDs in this case) were provided to girls in areas with high teen pregnancies rates. Education as well as birth control was provided at no charge, and the rates plummeted. Far cheaper than the extreme high cost of these girls going on medicaid while they are pregnant - having the child on medicaid, and then getting government assistance for them and the child. And, it looks like these girls are completing high school at a much higher rate, and going on to school after high school. They will be 'makers' not 'takers' as time goes on. And hopefully with the required education that went along with the supplied IUD, they will be waiting to have families until they are settled, and can afford to have children. Of course, the GOP in Colorado isn't going to continue funding a great program because they have their heads up their butts....

I realize you would like to see starving, neglected children in America, your entire 'it isn't my problem' rant certainly indicates your proclivity there, but I think we can do better than that. And you will pay for them, society isn't going to accept starving children... so how about working at preventing those pregnancies, at a pretty darn cheap rate, than providing for those children, which adds up to 10s of thousands. Again, your tax dollars will go to providing for those children, whether you like it or not.

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

From another thread.

Seahawk - where did you get this stat from:

Some real eye openers: Percent of unmarried teen birth rose from around 12% in 1950 to over 90% now. Ouch.

It isn't in the reference you gave - and I know that teen pregnancy rates aren't 90% in this country - so where is that number from?

I think you meant to say that of all teen births 90% of them are to unwed mothers...

It shows the decline of the shotgun wedding.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I don't believe charity should be mandated at the barrel of a (government goon's) gun. I'm all for helping out those in less advantaged situations (and do) but I want government policies and bureaucracies to stay the hell out of it. I don't believe government has the right to take my money and hand it to people who are having difficulty as a result of their own bad judgement and / or decisions.

Whoever above said this is about not being stupid nailed it. A person can be poor without being stupid. Life should be hard for stupid people - not necessarily for poor people. I don't really have a problem with that. If you're poor you can get out of it if you make the right (smart) decisions. It takes some brains and some commitment but it's not a foregone conclusion that one has to end up in an untenable situation for their whole life as a result. A little charity helps too I imagine.

If I were poor my top priority would be getting out of it. I'd be extra careful with my decisions. Sad that so many aren't.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Do fathers matter if the aforementioned father is a trophy hunter? Just wondering.

[john70t]

So there needs to be two things: an incentive for the female to have the male around (or punishment) and an incentive for the male to stay around (or punishment).

Compared to the 50's when the male worked and the female raised children and they were both stigmatized if not married and responsible, today the government takes over the main role as the primary breadwinner. The male is displaced and considered disposable while the female is surrounded by a network, culture, and legacy of single-parent females. Vive la liberation femme. Girls gone wild. Whoo Hoo. Power!

Both these cycles have to be broken.
I believe some of the M->F violence which tears apart young families stems from the unrealistic economic expectations of culture(i.e. cable before baby food), frustration of males who have lost empowerment, employment, and dignity, and a more assertive and/or aggressive female who claims dominance in all roles. Young people are not planning ahead for the future and sticking to their roles, because there aren't any roles.

[72doug2,2S]

Originally Posted by foxpaws

Misogynist often - why yes, I think you do...

Of course fathers matter - but, there are a lot of factors that feed into the teen pregnancy rate - the first is poverty.

....

Damn, I was going to say teenage sex. I guess I don't know everything afterall.

Thx Pause.

[sc_rufctr]

WOW... Lots of assumptions here. Most of you should know my story but here it is again anyways,

I lost everything and had to start from scratch and in the end I had to raise 3 children on my own.

Long boring story that's very typical so I wont bore you with the details.
The point is most fathers I know care about their kids and do the best they can for them.

Divorce sucks for both sides.

From the movie "The war of the roses" There are no winners. Just different degrees of losing.

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by john70t

So there needs to be two things: an incentive for the female to have the male around (or punishment) and an incentive for the male to stay around (or punishment).

So 'forcing' people to stay in miserable relationships works for the kids? Interesting concept -

Compared to the 50's when the male worked and the female raised children and they were both stigmatized if not married and responsible, today the government takes over the main role as the primary breadwinner. The male is displaced and considered disposable while the female is surrounded by a network, culture, and legacy of single-parent females. Vive la liberation femme. Girls gone wild. Whoo Hoo. Power!

You are upset that women traditionally have stronger bonds and have traditionally created better support systems among themselves? This isn't anything new - it has been this way since we were hunters/gatherers. If you think men are considered disposable, isn't that often as much the fault of the man, rather than entirely blame the woman?

I believe some of the M->F violence which tears apart young families stems from the unrealistic economic expectations of culture(i.e. cable before baby food), frustration of males who have lost empowerment, employment, and dignity, and a more assertive and/or aggressive female who claims dominance in all roles. Young people are not planning ahead for the future and sticking to their roles, because there aren't any roles.

Sticking to their 'roles' - really - empowering women is bad in your world... good to know. Best to have the little woman know her 'role' and not wander too far astray from that 'defined' and 'optimum' assignment of male and female ideals.

[Oh Haha]

I think that one of the problems today is the disposable society. My parents were married for 47 years. Not all were great, I'm sure but they stuck together. For us kids? Maybe.

Today, you can walk away from a marriage if you don't feel like trying to work on it.

I have been divorced(no kids, thanks goodness) and it was the best thing for both of us. We did try reconciliation and separation and it just simply did not work.

My ex came from a family of divorce. Her dad has been married 3 times and her mom was married at least 3 times.