High Compression Pistons or Performance Chips

[Lorenfb]

Here's a very applicable & interesting thread on this topic:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=260251

[Wil Ferch]

Loren:

I'll bite and offer a comment....

I don't thnk there is as much difference in the attitude of people on this board as you think...when comparing the damaging effects of:
- too high compression with single plugs, and
- running chips with more aggressive timing and fuel delivery maps.

Agreed....both ...when taken to an extreme...will cause the same sorts of problems. You seem to imply people are turning a blind eye to the "chip" effects"... yet are oddly "aware" of the single/twin plug goodness when going high compression.

Maybe it's this Loren.... maybe it's a matter of degree. In much the same way that going from 9+ CR to 10+CR is bad for a single plug engine with today's gas.... the same can't be said if we went from 8+ to 9+ CR. That wouldn't demand a change to twin plug as assuredly as the former case.

We can make the same analogy on chips. Going TOO FAR in aggressive mapping indeed causes engine distress...but going only a little bit aggressive from a baseline that may have assumed 87 octane fuel ( like the 84-85 Carrera's)....similarly won't make the engine self destruct. The factory did the same thing in their various chip offering up to and including the "cup" chip.

You say "we're not listening". Maybe "you're not listening" in that all chips mfgrs don't use the *same* level of aggressive tuning. Some inch up in a more conservative manner and won't land you into the trouble zone....as you keep telling us "all" chips will do !

I'm sure you'll respond to tell me how very wrong I am....

Wil

[Jeff Alton]

This gets a little much after a while...... Getting tired of Loren trying to say that most posters here, with a few exceptions, are stupid.........

Maybe you could just agree to disagree with some folks. There are lots of threads with your opinion here available to anyone who wants to do a search.

Your knowledge of how motronics and Bosch engine mgmt in general is an asset to all who post here but man, don't belittle the folks who continue to research modifications and ask questions. They may actually "get it" but they may disagree to some extent with your opinion, or want to hear from people who have actually done the mods they are thinking about.

Cheers

[sammyg2]

It's the latest segment of Loren vs. the world.
He says everyone with an aftermarket chip is misinformed, dilusional, etc. and the chips don't work,
Yet everyone keeps reporting that the chips do increase performance. Everyone is wrong except for him.
He claims that these chips kill engines, but no engines are dying because of them.

He claims all kinds of rubbish and then when someone disagrees with his so called theories, he goes on the personal attack.
Loren is not just the king of trolls, it goes much deeper than that. I wonder if he spews his drivel and bad-mouths SW chips because of greed?
I guess if you can't make a decent product, you might as well bad-mouth the competition to try and make their product look as bad as yours.
Go away king of the trolls, you have nothing but enemies here.

And Wayne, if your listening, I told Laura Hergesheimer a while ago that I will not do business with any business that deals with Loren. Same goes for Pelican. I don't know all the details of the relationship between pelican and Loren but if he is a supplier, I am no longer a customer.

[dpolitzer]

Sammy, aren't you being a little hard on Loren...and that goes for everyone who goes after the guy.

To say that Loren is passionate about the whole chip industry may be an understatement...but it's a message board and it's free speach.

Yes Loren doens't have any evidence that Steve Wong's chip specifically does any harm....rather he provides evidence in general of the harm that chips can do. Loren's remarks are certainly harsh at times but so are some of his critics. Let him say what he wants...anyone who is shopping for a chip should do all the research they can after all a 911 is a rather costly investment.

I was such a consumer and after all the research I did...decided to buy a SW chip..I have not been disappointed. As Loren believes..you may not hear the detonation/pinging that is actually going on. Maybe he's right, but I still think that the Wong chip is mildly tuned enough that I am safe. Suffice to say it's MY car and MY decision.

Let Loren believe what he wants...I actually appreciated seeing him comments before I purchased my chip..I believe that my decision was more informed as a result.

Once again Sammy, to boycott Pelican because of Loren? Come on now? Are you never going to eat at let's say McDonalds because they served someone you didn't care for? As far as I'm concerned it's hypocritical to refuse to buy their parts but to use a board sponsored by them.

[Jeff Alton]

Hmmmmm, you may not have been here long enough to have seen a lot of the posts by Loren that moderators ended up removing and threads that got deleted from the archives. It is understandable why some have such issues with Loren. There is a pretty good reason why some folks give it to him pretty good. I can't remember too many, if any, times that he got it worse than he gave it.

Also, I think what Sammy is saying is something more along the lines of this.
He maybe would not eat at McDonalds if he had a big issue with one of their suppliers. Is he being harsh? Maybe, but like you said, it is a message board and it is free speach.

I just don't care for his delivery period. Yes, he has posted losts of very good and useful info over the years, but the way he does it just rubs some people. The whole notion that if you don't agree 100% with him then you must be an idiot is laughable.

The sad part is, if I was ever in need of services that his company offers, I would look elsewhere. I don't deal with people who tell their potential customers they are stupid, plain and simple. I am sure I am not alone in this thinking even though He and I have never had a war of words at all. But when a business owner posts I try hard to deterimine if the poster is someone I would do business with judging by their attitude and courtesy. I have nothing to base it on other than a gut feeling, but I would not want to find out what it would be like if I had a problem with some work his company performed for me. So, I would just avoid the chance to find out.

Cheers

[Lorenfb]

"I don't thnk there is as much difference in the attitude of people on this board as you think...when comparing the damaging effects of:
- too high compression with single plugs, and
- running chips with more aggressive timing and fuel delivery maps."

- Wil Ferch -

The opposite is really the case if you thoroughly read and understand the well
written posts on the above linked thread. Those posts indicate a very conservative
view when changing the compression ratio which is not the case for those
considering the use of a performance chip. The other thread on a CR change
raises concern about even a very minor CR change.

Just like the uncertainties with the use higher CRs, there're uncertainties
with performance chips, but these seem to get ignored because many promote
them or haven't noticed issues, e.g. sub-audible pinging. It's kinda like the blind
following the blind when it comes to performance chips.

Obviously there're many who have concern about the issues I raise or you
wouldn't see the slams/attacks & hostility toward my posts on performance
chips, with few or any intelligent comments/responses (yours). The usual
post you'll see is; "My engine hasn't blown-up." or "Where's the data to
indicate there's a perfromance chip problem?". You don't see this challenge
on the use of a higher CR, even though the issues are very similar.

Yes, as you say, some performance chips are less aggressive than others,
but they all take the ignition advance maps into a higher risk area as my data
( www.systemsc.com/tests.htm ) indicate, to achieve a noticeable responsiveness.

There was a reason Porsche set the CRs and the timing maps to what
they determined to be the max in the '88 & '89 3.2. Additional performance
required Porsche to use twin plugs and a DSP knock sensing system (a special
microcontroller that operates in parallel to the fuel/ignition microcontroller)
in the 964 & 993 to allow higher ignition advance maps.

No chip supplier has the resources to properly test and evaluate a performance
chip supplied as Porsche can. The same applies to using higher CRs. Most/all chip
suppliers just test/program the chips by driving a test vehicle on the street.
In reading the CR thread, one should get an idea of the proper methodolgy for
proper testing and evaluation, whether it's a performance chip or a higher CR.

"The factory did the same thing in their various chip offering up to and including the "cup" chip."

- Wil Ferch -

Porsche did NOT change the timing maps in the Club Sport DME unit from the stock
'88/'89 DME, only the rev limit (>~300 RPM). So, here for racing Porsche could
have "pushed" the timing maps, but they didn't. Thus, one should consider all
performance chip timing maps as beyond what Porsche considered appropriate.

Noteable quotes from here:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=260251

"The vast majority of chips that have triggered serious engine damage over the past 15 years seemed to have been sourced from folks who didn't understand & grasp that the West Coast has totally different gasolines from the East Coast and never tested their products with 91 and 92 octane fuels"

- Steve Weiner -

"Engine parameters also affect octane requirements. Excessive deck height promotes detonation as does incorrect spark plug heat range, aggressive ignition mapping, and lean fuel mixtures in these hemispherical, lazy (low swirl) combustion chambers. Everything must be right to PREVENT detonation from low RPM to redline and at all throttle positions.

Hopefully, the reason for Porsche's decision to incorporate active knock-sensing into the last generation of air-cooled engines is clearer,.....one cannot always control the above variables well enough to prevent serious internal engine damage. This is why one must be more conservative when building and operating a high-compression 911 motor without adaptive knock-sensing."

- Steve Weiner -

"Quite obviously, this is something that is very difficult to quantify so unless one performs annual borescope inspections, one cannot really know anything aside from load-type dyno testing and doing plug cuts. IMHO, this latter methodology is a "Kentucky Windage" approach and not recommended. Its unfortunate that the pre-3.6's do not have knock-sensors and thus the ability to "eavesdrop" and listen to knock-sensor activity like one can do with the 3.6's using various scan tools & Engine Management."

- Steve Weiner -

[88-diamondblue]

Since we are quoting Steve Weiner we need to have the whole story not just selected parts of it. And the rest of the story...

Quote from Steve Weiner

"Brother" Loren:

LOL,...I'm not about to rehash the performance chip issue; I know what I've seen first-hand on our engine dyno over the past 22 years,...

I'd only offer that its incongruous to lump each and every person who has the capability to alter OEM software for some performance gains. Clearly, some companies/personnel are better at this than others and some are simply irresponsible about what they do. Stating that this applies to ALL persons involved in the performance software business is wholly incorrect.

IMHO, its akin to making a blanket statement that ALL people are thieves and liars (notice I did NOT say; politicians).

Each & every individual and enterprise engaged in this business's skill and knowledge must be judged on their own merits and long-term results.

I'd kindly suggest that perhaps you should take a bit of time to watch first-hand what these people do before stating that people in this industry are incompetant and will cause internal engine damage. Perhaps after doing just that, your observations/opinions would have more merit,.....

Well said Steve. There is great respect for the people who have contributed to the thread this quote came from. Namely, Ralph, Henry, Steve W and Steve Weiner who know what works. As with most things it's the entire package and how that performs. Pretty much said by all above which includes proper selection of the PC's,size, comression ratio, number of spark plugs(single or dual plug) and fuel/engine management (tuned chip) to extract the best performance. We are talking Motronic engine with this thread. The other thread has been a great learning experience for all participating. If you haven't read it, it is full of information.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Thank you, Michael,.....

All human communications (written or verbal) require context to be not only clearly understood, but effective as well and I'm glad you provided that.

All the same, a big kudos to all involved for starting & participating in great threads that I hope anyone reading these can find something of value.

[Joeaksa]

Considering the state of our fuel supplies these days, anyone going with higher compression engines needs their head looked at. The quality of fuel is only going to get worse and worse (or more expensive to remain where it is) and eventually we are going to be forced to lower compressions to keep cars on the road.

Not going to get into the Loren vs the world debate but sure wish that he would concentrate on doing what he does very well and leave everyone else alone. His professional standing is a lot higher when he stops going after everyone making chips IMHO. Sticking one's foot (or leg) into their mouth does not make customers run to any business...

JA

[Wavey]

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=248643&perpage=20&highlight=charity&pagenumber=6

Please see the last posts in this thread. Where is the evidence of Steve Wong's chips damaging engines? Steve has sold hundreds, probably thousands, of chips; where are all the damaged engines? Loren was challenged ($100 to his favorite charity) to produce evidence over 2 months ago. No response because this is a non-issue, yet for some reason Loren continues with this drivel.

[RG5]

If these tests hold water then why cant the supplier A, B and C be identified? At least then give them an opportunity to defend their product. Who's to say these results are actually real / accurate.

[Wil Ferch]

Loren:

As I said at the outset, I don't actually believe your points are without merit... yet I still stand by my comment that it's a matter of degree-of-change and degree-of-aggressiveness that is not being clearly addressed . The same was done during the carburetor, hot-rod days. You could get performance improvements with fuel/ignition advance adjustments...just don't go too far. Those modded cars didn't have "real-time" feedback either, and you simply had to know how far you could go. There were no "official factory" specs to violate. Experience counted for a lot for the hot-rod tuner of the day. Or are you saying all modded SBC's would eventually blow up ??

And...I don't particularly care to being quoted out-of-context. I say, for example, that Porsche pushed the ignition and fuel delivery maps within the 3.2 model run ( 84-89).... yet you ( instead) choose to look more narrowly on the latest year of production when you counter by saying...

" Porsche did NOT change the timing maps in the Club Sport DME unit from the stock
'88/'89 DME, only the rev limit (>~300 RPM).

Ahh.... I never said that !! ( Cup vs 89 production).

The 84-85 cars were programmed from the factory to use 87 octane fuel and the later cars for premium fuel. Therefore ( in this context) they indeed DID change both fuel and ignition maps as I indicated. It seems,... unfortunately for all... that you need to re-phrase and re-quote other people's responses to make your point, Loren, a tactic that is becoming less appreciated, and most certainly continues to hurt your credibility. It needn't be this way, since there is merit for your concern.

Still...absent any emotion, thare is no doubt that there is inherent risk in pushing the "chip" envelope, bit it's one thing to ignore the possible side effects altogether, and still another thing to inch-past the factory settings and pronounce that as categorically and totally unsafe in all cases.

Best,
- Wil

[livi]

Loren does present some very convincing arguments.

Is it fair to say that there is no "scientific" proof of increased damage with for example a SW chip - but on the other hand there is no evidence of the opposite neither ? Hundreds of happy chip owners is of course significant - but is it proof ?

Wil´s suggestion that it is a matter of degree sounds utterly plausible. Some where, probably unique for every car, is the fine line between max performance and increasing damage. No ?

Also, mine being a '85 apparently lends it comparatively well to chipping. Right ?

Yes ianc, I am still planning on order a SW chip..

[DW SD]

I think any Pelican that has done (or will do) even the slightest amount of pre-purchase research related to performance chips would realize that this is a controversial topic and that he / she is taking on increased potential for engine damage as additional risk, in the pursuit of additional engine performance, throttle response and smoothness.

Though I question his motivation, Loren has certainly spread the word, often as a lone fish swimming against a VERY strong current.

Just curious: IS THE DEAD HORSE PULVERIZED YET?

[AvonGil]

I just recived my SW chip. Oh boy is my car fast now. Interestingly, there is a 709 serial number on it? Where are the 708 blown up engines?

Althought there is no way for me to know how agressive the timing map is compared to stock, I am not worried. The bottom line is we are trusting the chip programer, im my case Steve Wong. I have never seen a negative post of an actual customer.

[Lorenfb]

"The factory did the same thing in their various chip offering up to and including the "cup" chip."

- Wil Ferch -

So what does this mean?

Yes, it's well known that Porsche did change the timing maps from the early '84,
but it reached a point were Porsche determined a max as evidenced by the
fact that they did NOT continue to "push" the timing in the Club Sport DME
which was the "higher performance" 911 3.2, and used the same maps as the
'88/'89 stock maps.

It seems that you continue to overlook the key points of both threads:

1. No rigorous/exhaustive evaluation has been done for performance chips as
suggested by the CR thread, just that no one has had a "blown engine".

2. That for ANY CR change, it's suggested that the engine be thoroughly evaluated.

So where's the logic here? It sounds more like the "blind leading the blind" and
a disregard for what most don't want to hear or accept. If one reads both threads
about CR & performance chips, there's basically no difference between either
mod when it comes to a thorough evaluation of either other than a "street
test" while driving with a laptop, please, what a joke!

"All human communications (written or verbal) require context to be not only clearly understood, but effective as well and I'm glad you provided that."

- Steve Weiner -

Nothing has been taken out of context. May be one needs to re-read and better
understand what one wrote or not write it!

[DW SD]

Originally posted by Lorenfb

So where's the logic here? It sounds more like the "blind leading the blind" and a disregard for what most don't want to hear or accept.

Loren, you've beaten this drum for a very long time.

May I respectfully ask: why do you really care so much about this issue? It seems like it has become a vendetta causing way too much emotion (from all parties, not you necessarily).

From your posts, I know what you advocate and guess how you setup your own cars and engines.

As one who believes that there is too much government bureaucracy and control, I'm personally offended regularly when the government attempts to step in and protect people from themselves.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by AvonGil
I just recived my SW chip. Oh boy is my car fast now. Interestingly, there is a 709 serial number on it? Where are the 708 blown up engines?

Althought there is no way for me to know how agressive the timing map is compared to stock, I am not worried. The bottom line is we are trusting the chip programer, im my case Steve Wong. I have never seen a negative post of an actual customer.

My 3.2 was one of the 700+ chips and its still running fine six years later. Do not have any idea how many years Loren needs to see before he feels that the chip "just might" be ok for the engine.

Used a SW chip for 3 years on it before selling it when I stuffed a 3.6 in the car. New owner of the engine has been driving it for 3+ years with NOT A PROBLEM with the engine or chip.

Loren, everytime you post something like this you push your reputation down just a bit futher. Please give it a rest and concentrate on what you do very well???!!! My question is like DW's. Why in the world does he have his panties in his crack over this? They do not compete against each other. Did Loren get a bad chip? Does he want to go into the chip business? What is it Loren, why do you have a hard on for Steve Wong and chips?

Joe A

[Lorenfb]

"Do not have any idea how many years Loren needs to see before he feels that the chip "just might" be ok for the engine."

- Joeaska -

Typical! Can't you do any better than the typical post? Why not provide an
intelligent post and contribute to the discussion and not just jump on the
"bandwagon"? It sounds as if you're a shop owner or maybe just another
"conduit" to promote and sell chips & one with little knowledge of engines
as is the case for DW SD.

If no real contributions occur, it's probably time to close the thread!