77 911s Key stuck in ignition!?

[SickIan]

Long story short, I was having issues with my 77 911s. The car wouldnt turn over and the fuel pump wasnt coming on with the key. I took it to a local wiring specialist and they got it lined out, but when i picked up the car, the key was stucj in the ignition. It only turns back to the "1" position. I cannot even shut the car off without popping the clutch and then unhooking the battery to kill the power. The fuel pump runs continuous with the key in the on position as well. If i dont start the car right away, it seems to flood the engine. 2.7l by the way. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[boyt911sc]

I would get a locksmith to get the key out and have it inspected. Your initial goal is to have a working ignition switch. Second, the wiring in your FP circuit is not correct!!! The FP should not be running with the ignition switch @ ON position. Before you go and fix the electrical problem, attend to the ignition switch first. Just my two-cents.

Tony

[SickIan]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

I would get a locksmith to get the key out and have it inspected. Your initial goal is to have a working ignition switch. Second, the wiring in your FP circuit is not correct!!! The FP should not be running with the ignition switch @ ON position. Before you go and fix the electrical problem, attend to the ignition switch first. Just my two-cents.

Tony

Thanks man. Ive heard several people on here in other threads mention that their FP did the same thing. Something to do with the air flow sensor... I will see if i can find anything else out about that. Very stumped by the key issue. Never had a key that got stuck in the ign. Especially not turning all the way back vertical. Didnt know if this was a known issue with 911 ign.

[SickIan]

Got the key out finally. Penetrating oil and alot of wiggling. Now i need to look into FP issue..

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by SickIan

Got the key out finally. Penetrating oil and alot of wiggling. Now i need to look into FP issue..

SickIan,

Now that switch is OK (hopefully), you could go check your FP wiring problem. Just to give you a background how the FP relay works will help you diagnose this problem. The FP relay has 5 terminals namely:
87........gets power when IS @ start.
87a......gets power when IS @ ON/Run.
86........(same as 87a).
85........ground contact for the coil.
30........terminal to FP.

Pull out the relay socket and do the diagnostic at the relay socket.
1). Ign SW @ off-----no power to any of these terminal.
2). Ign. SW @ ON---87a & 86 should have power.
3). Ign. SW @ START---87 gets power at the same time the starter cranks up.

At believe this is where your problem is coming from @ terminal #85. With the IS @ off, check terminal #85 from ground. Use either a continuity tester or a simple test light (lamp) to confirm whether #85 is grounded or not. Keep us posted.

Tony

[SickIan]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

SickIan,

Now that switch is OK (hopefully), you could go check your FP wiring problem. Just to give you a background how the FP relay works will help you diagnose this problem. The FP relay has 5 terminals namely:
87........gets power when IS @ start.
87a......gets power when IS @ ON/Run.
86........(same as 87a).
85........ground contact for the coil.
30........terminal to FP.

Pull out the relay socket and do the diagnostic at the relay socket.
1). Ign SW @ off-----no power to any of these terminal.
2). Ign. SW @ ON---87a & 86 should have power.
3). Ign. SW @ START---87 gets power at the same time the starter cranks up.

At believe this is where your problem is coming from @ terminal #85. With the IS @ off, check terminal #85 from ground. Use either a continuity tester or a simple test light (lamp) to confirm whether #85 is grounded or not. Keep us posted.

Tony

I wish i read this earlier. Just pulled my hair out figuring out everything you just simply laid out. ha. I did the check you mentioned and found everything to be true. I have no ground at 85. i ran a jumper wire to the negative battery terminal and to 85 on FP relay and it keeps the pump from running in the on position, but i dont believe it is coming on in the start position. Any ideas. thanks a ton for your help.

[SickIan]

I dont think its the relay. I swapped the horn relay with the FP relay and both seem to be fine.

[Jerome74911S]

I don't know the solution to your fuel pump issue, but as for the stuck key, I had a similar problem. It turned out that there was an almost imperceptible bend in the key. Once the key was wiggled out of the ignition switch I gave it a slight twist and it has been fine ever since.

My car is a '74.

[ossiblue]

One bit of clarification (and Tony, please correct me if I'm wrong here.) Terminal 85 is the ground connection for the coil of the relay, but it will lose the ground continuity once the engine begins to draw vacuum and open the air flow sensor. What this means for you is, you should not run a permanent ground to 85, here's why:

Grounding 85 sends the current path in the relay to terminal 87--the starter--when the ignition is in the "on" position. The fuel pump will not run until the starter is engaged. When the starter is engaged, the fuel pump starts and once vacuum exists in the intake, the air flow sensor opens and you lose ground contact at terminal 85. The loss of ground "opens" the relay and alters the current path to terminal 87a so the fuel pump continues to run in the ignition "on" position. With this arrangement, if the engine should somehow stall, the fuel pump will shut down because vacuum is lost, the air flow switch closes grounding terminal 85, the relay now closes and diverts the current path to terminal 87 (starter) and you're back to the beginning--no running fuel pump in the "on" position.

Running a permanent ground to 85 will result in the current path (within the relay) to always be to the starter and once the engine starts, the current path will remain from the starter and the fuel pump will shut down as soon as you release the key from the start position.

If you did the check Tony posted, and all terminals were correct as described and the pump did not turn on when terminal 87 was hot (start position), then you may have a problem with the air flow sensor switch. You posted you had no ground at 85 during your tests which would indicate a fault with the air flow sensor or the adjustment of the sensor plate. However, double check and be sure you tested each terminal exactly as Tony posted, especially the test to see if 87 is powered when the key is in "start" only, and the continuity to ground of 85. BTW, are you certain the air flow sensor is plugged in? You'll likely need a mirror and flashlight to check the connection on the intake, and look for a brown/black wire connector near the 14-pin connector in the engine compartment. The brown/black wire should be coming out of the wiring harness. It would be near the small, three terminal fuse block on the electrical panel at the back left corner of the engine compartment.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by SickIan

I dont think its the relay. I swapped the horn relay with the FP relay and both seem to be fine.

SickIan,

Did you read the post by Larry (Ossiblue)? He explained very well what I asked you to do to locate the problem and you have located it. The tests I laid out to you was not to test the FP relay but determine the wiring anomaly in your car.

The absence of ground contact @ terminal 85 (FPR socket) tells you that it is not grounded!!!! It could be caused by an open line like a disconnected AFS switch plug or a cut in the wire.




Larry,

I like to disagree about your above post but you have explained it so well that I have to agree with everything you stated. So how many more times do we have to explain this so people would remember it? Sometimes I'm tempted to do a 'cut and paste' reply or post 'do a search' but that's not helpful. Or help solve a problem.


Tony

[SickIan]

Found that the AFS was unplugged. Plugged it in and it keeps the FP from coming on in the on position, but the fuel pump isnt coming on in the start position either. Bad AFS? Ive tried 2 different relays so i dont believe its that.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by SickIan

Found that the AFS was unplugged. Plugged it in and it keeps the FP from coming on in the on position, but the fuel pump isnt coming on in the start position either. Bad AFS? Ive tried 2 different relays so i dont believe its that.

Here's and easy test for the AFS. Remove the air filter. Hook up a test for the ground at terminal 85 (either a test light or multimeter.) With the ignition "on" and the relay removed, check the ground at 85--it should be grounded. Now, have someone gently lift the sensor arm in the intake. You should lose the ground connection as soon as the lever moves upward. If that checks out, your AFS is working.

Okay, now that the AFS is plugged in, you've done all of Tony's tests and they check out and you also now have a grounded terminal 85. Let's go step-by-step and you may need an assistant.

First, turn on the ignition and listen/feel for the relay to click. If it does, go to next step.

Remove the relay and using a test light, test terminal 87 while someone cranks the starter. There will only be 12 volts at terminal 87 while the starter is turning so this may take two people. Report your findings.

By all accounts, if your voltage tests have checked out, there is voltage during cranking at terminal 87, and the relay is good, the pump should go on.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by SickIan

Found that the AFS was unplugged. Plugged it in and it keeps the FP from coming on in the on position, but the fuel pump isnt coming on in the start position either. Bad AFS? Ive tried 2 different relays so i dont believe its that.

SickIan,

Turn the ignition switch @ ON position. With AFS ground connector correctly plugged in place, the FP relay plugged too, you can now test the AFS switch and FP by lifting the AFS plate very briefly. The FP should run while the AFS plate is lifted up. Remove one (1) injector and observe when you lift up the AFS plate.

Keep us posted on the result.

Tony

[SickIan]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Here's and easy test for the AFS. Remove the air filter. Hook up a test for the ground at terminal 85 (either a test light or multimeter.) With the ignition "on" and the relay removed, check the ground at 85--it should be grounded. Now, have someone gently lift the sensor arm in the intake. You should lose the ground connection as soon as the lever moves upward. If that checks out, your AFS is working.

Okay, now that the AFS is plugged in, you've done all of Tony's tests and they check out and you also now have a grounded terminal 85. Let's go step-by-step and you may need an assistant.

First, turn on the ignition and listen/feel for the relay to click. If it does, go to next step.

Remove the relay and using a test light, test terminal 87 while someone cranks the starter. There will only be 12 volts at terminal 87 while the starter is turning so this may take two people. Report your findings.

By all accounts, if your voltage tests have checked out, there is voltage during cranking at terminal 87, and the relay is good, the pump should go on.

Everything checks out except for the ground. 85 is grounded when in on, but lifting the plunger the ground doesn't disappear...

[SickIan]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

One bit of clarification (and Tony, please correct me if I'm wrong here.) Terminal 85 is the ground connection for the coil of the relay, but it will lose the ground continuity once the engine begins to draw vacuum and open the air flow sensor. What this means for you is, you should not run a permanent ground to 85, here's why:

Grounding 85 sends the current path in the relay to terminal 87--the starter--when the ignition is in the "on" position. The fuel pump will not run until the starter is engaged. When the starter is engaged, the fuel pump starts and once vacuum exists in the intake, the air flow sensor opens and you lose ground contact at terminal 85. The loss of ground "opens" the relay and alters the current path to terminal 87a so the fuel pump continues to run in the ignition "on" position. With this arrangement, if the engine should somehow stall, the fuel pump will shut down because vacuum is lost, the air flow switch closes grounding terminal 85, the relay now closes and diverts the current path to terminal 87 (starter) and you're back to the beginning--no running fuel pump in the "on" position.

Running a permanent ground to 85 will result in the current path (within the relay) to always be to the starter and once the engine starts, the current path will remain from the starter and the fuel pump will shut down as soon as you release the key from the start position.

If you did the check Tony posted, and all terminals were correct as described and the pump did not turn on when terminal 87 was hot (start position), then you may have a problem with the air flow sensor switch. You posted you had no ground at 85 during your tests which would indicate a fault with the air flow sensor or the adjustment of the sensor plate. However, double check and be sure you tested each terminal exactly as Tony posted, especially the test to see if 87 is powered when the key is in "start" only, and the continuity to ground of 85. BTW, are you certain the air flow sensor is plugged in? You'll likely need a mirror and flashlight to check the connection on the intake, and look for a brown/black wire connector near the 14-pin connector in the engine compartment. The brown/black wire should be coming out of the wiring harness. It would be near the small, three terminal fuse block on the electrical panel at the back left corner of the engine compartment.

What is the brown/black wire for? Hot or negative?

[SickIan]

Brn/blk wire is apparently for the afs.

I have checked everything i can think of...

87 is hot when cranking

85 is ground until the car starts to run , then i goes away.

unplugged brn/blk wire while key was on and the pump started running.

I have no idea what else to check. It seems as if everything is correct.

I can hear the relay click when key is turned on, then click again when in start. checked pump with voltmeter and it isnt getting any power..

Im wondering if the electrical shop wired something different when they fixed the no crank issue. I just dont know what it could be because everything tests out right, but no power to pump..

Any other ideas?

[SickIan]

Ok. Had a bad ground to the fuel pump. Corrected that. The fp is now running in the start position and no longer in the on position. Here's the weird part. The car will start and run for a few seconds with the relay out. I plugged the relay in while it was running and it instantly died like i turned the key off. I have tried swapping the horn relay and the fp relay. Same outcome. Both relays work in the horn socket.. Any suggestions at all???

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by SickIan

Ok. Had a bad ground to the fuel pump. Corrected that. The fp is now running in the start position and no longer in the on position. Here's the weird part. The car will start and run for a few seconds with the relay out. I plugged the relay in while it was running and it instantly died like i turned the key off. I have tried swapping the horn relay and the fp relay. Same outcome. Both relays work in the horn socket.. Any suggestions at all???

SickIan,

It's very difficult to make a good diagnostic based from the feedback (information) you are supplying us. There are contradictions and it is only you who could explain and answer them. The initial problem was the FP was running when IS @ ON. You found the problem about #85. So when you plugged the AFS ground connector back, the FP stopped running (@ON position) which is normal. But found out that the FP has no ground connection (???).

Have you tested the FP using the AFS switch as I suggested earlier? The wiring connections seems OK now and we could test your FP relay as soon as we get the info we requested. Keep us posted.

Tony

[SickIan]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

SickIan,

It's very difficult to make a good diagnostic based from the feedback (information) you are supplying us. There are contradictions and it is only you who could explain and answer them. The initial problem was the FP was running when IS @ ON. You found the problem about #85. So when you plugged the AFS ground connector back, the FP stopped running (@ON position) which is normal. But found out that the FP has no ground connection (???).

Have you tested the FP using the AFS switch as I suggested earlier? The wiring connections seems OK now and we could test your FP relay as soon as we get the info we requested. Keep us posted.

Tony

Yes i have became very confused. I believe the lack of ground i found at the FP was a bad connection at the brn/blk wire in the engine compartment. I just removed the temporary ground i made to the FP and it seems to be working fiine.Yes i tested the afs by lifting the arm and it hums like normal. I can hear it hum when cranking the engine. The car still doesnt start unless i remove the FP relay. It almost seems as if it is flooding the car. It starts and runs for a few seconds when i pull the relay out, burns up what fuel it has, then dies.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by SickIan

Yes i have became very confused. I believe the lack of ground i found at the FP was a bad connection at the brn/blk wire in the engine compartment. I just removed the temporary ground i made to the FP and it seems to be working fiine.Yes i tested the afs by lifting the arm and it hums like normal. I can hear it hum when cranking the engine. The car still doesnt start unless i remove the FP relay. It almost seems as if it is flooding the car. It starts and runs for a few seconds when i pull the relay out, burns up what fuel it has, then dies.

I read you initial post last night about the car running without the relay and couldn't figure out how that was possible but your latest post explains it. When you lift the arm in the intake with the ignition on and relay in, you will start the fuel pump and also cause the injectors to spray fuel. Removing the relay and trying to start the car would cause the existing fuel to burn.

Now, to get this all straight.

1. You can hear the fuel pump running (by lifting the lever in the intake) with the ignition on, correct?

2. You can hear the fuel pump running when the engine is cranking during the start cycle, correct?

3. After you've pumped fuel into the engine via lifting the lever in the intake with ignition on, pulling the relay will allow the engine to run until the fuel is burned, correct?

4. Once the engine has burned all the fuel, the engine will not start/run with the relay replaced, correct?

If all the above are correct, your problem may be with your cold start injector/thermal switch and, possibly, check valve or fuel accumulator. The cold start injector shoots raw fuel into the intake when the starter is cranking causing an initial firing of the engine. If the injector is faulty, or the thermal switch which controls it is faulty, the engine will likely not start regardless of the fuel pump unless you crank it over for a considerable time which risks flooding. If the injector is not working, no raw fuel to get a cold engine going (engine flooding due to over cranking.) If the injector is leaking or continually spraying fuel, the engine will flood rapidly.

What you did when you tested the system by lifting the lever is manually inject fuel into the engine, like a cold start injector. When you tried to start the engine, it was already saturated with fuel, and continued cranking simply flooded it more. When you removed the relay, the fuel pump ceased to run and the engine was able to ignite the existing fuel and run, until it had burned away, because neither the cold start injector nor the regular injectors were getting fuel.

It sounds like all components of the relay/pump are now correct, and your engine should run once the cold start circuit is checked out (which includes a couple of other components related to air intake, but that's for later.)

What I would suggest also is a testing of you fuel pressures and residual pressure, using a fuel gauge set. If the system isn't holding pressure after the pump has been running, that's and indication of a faulty check valve or leaking fuel accumulator.

The only other possibility I can think of, and it's remote, is that somehow when the relay is replaced, you lose ignition spark. I don't see how that could happen, but you may wish to do a quick check for spark with the relay in--you know it's there when the relay is removed as the engine will run, briefly.