Installing 95 993 3.6 into 69 T/RSR

[rennch]

Hi all. I thought I’d combine my threads into one unified one so y’all can follow along with this install. Hopefully it will be of future use to pelicanites. This all happened rather quickly. I decided to sell my PMO’ed 3.0 engine because it was going to be too pricey to try to build the 300 hp motor that the car deserved. I put the motor up on Pelican, and it sold in hours. Then a super clean 3.6 kind of fell into my lap for a great price, and it was located close enough to drive and grab.

When I was asking which engine I should get, Bill Verburg responded with these great bits of into, reposted here in case people want to know which 3.6 does what, and which are easier to instal (This is 2 quotes merged together)l:

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

For a t/p either OBD1 or OBD2 can work, it's just that the US OBD2 system is more complicated and more of a PIA to work w/

all '94/95 and RoW '96-98 993 normally aspirated are OBD1, these have a 55pin DME and user replaceable chip. for manual trans only 47 of the pins are used. w/ 1 O sensor.

all US '96 up 993 are OBD2, these use an 88pin DME. The chips are not user replaceable, '96 was an odd ball year where the chip wasn't even flash-able, so you would need to replace the DME w/ a '97/98 version that is flash-able by properly equipped technician. 55 of the pins are used and these have 4 O sensors

When I was looking for a 3.6 to t/p I first used a 964, these are also 55pin, w/ user replaceable chips. I replaced that motor w/ a '97 RoW rebuilt to RS spec, I felt this was too much for the trans, so replaced that w/ a mildly modified '95 US 3.6, which is perfect. The 993 non vari ram engines fit best and make better torque/hp than the 964, the 3.6 vari ram motors make better hp/torque but only the RoW are OBD1, as mentioned above US '96-98 are V-ram but also are OBD2.

I have never felt the need for vram on the '95 3.6 in a light early chassis, but if you want to add it at some point it is a very simple bolt on w/ only 2 easy wire changes and a chip change.

If I was looking now i'd look for a US95 non vram or '96-98 RoW vram and plan on rebuilding it.

'93/94, are for the most part, 964(there were some 993 in '94 but they are relatively rare) the 964 has less power and torque than a 993, the Motronic is cruder but still better than anything previous, the 964 crank will want to retain the harmonic balancer and the rotating/reciprocating assembly is heavier and will be slower to rev. The 964 crank uses the wider bearings of the 930 and so was chosen for use on the 993 Cup and RSR, W/ stock rev limits@ ~6800 the 993 will be superior, w/ extended revs to the high 8s a GT3 crank will be superior as it uses the wide 930 bearing too and benefits from modern technology. For a stockish engine the 993 will be fine for any race track use that most people will put it too and perform better than a 964 as reliably and it fits better in a 911 engine bay. There is nothing wrong per se w/ vram, it is more complicated so there is more to fail, the biggest concern is vacuum leaks which are easy to track down w/ smoke(a non vram 993 and 964 are also subject to similar vacuum issues). US vrams are the ones that I would avoid. Case in point is a local -96 vram which is having an issue w/ the immobilizer, it would be a non issue on an OBD1 car but the OBD2 design will make it very expensive to repair. Last time you asked I recommended any OBD1 over any OBD2.
OBD1 are all 964, all '94/95 993(these are non vram) all RoW '96-98 normally aspirated 993(these are all vram)
OBD2 is all 993t, all US '96-98, of the US cars the ones to get are the '97'98 w/ an improved Motronic design.

In a t/p you probably don't want the immobilizer to be active, on the OBD1 cars it's just a user doable chip change, w/ the OBD2 '96 you need to buy a '97'98 DME then have it reflashed, w/ a 'OBD2 '97/98 you need to have the DME re-flashed.

all the OBD1 have user replaceable chips, good ones can be had from Steve Wong for a very reasonable price for 964. 993 non vram and 993 vram(as long as it is OBD1)

the 993s all fit better that the 964s because of the height of the intake and fuel metering, nonvram fits better than vram

the biggest thing to look for is that the engine wiring harness recall was done, for motors that need to have this done out of warranty some guys got lucky and got $2-300 harnesses thru dealers other spent much more, beyond that the usual things to check are the same as for any other motor, before installing I'd reseal the valve covers and timing chain covers and install new plugs, those are the things hard to do right later, the oil temp pressure console(top forward, center on the case) can be another source of leaks. On the 993 w/ hyd lifters you can hear a bad lifter but on a non running motor inspect them for failed seals they will usually be pretty obvious

Great bits of info in there.

My motor is a 1995 993 engine. It’s just in the back of the truck now as we drive back down to San Diego. I have no other info about it, but I’ve left a VM for the guy that owned it before the gentleman I bought it from.

Overall the engine looks great. No oil leaks anywhere, and it’s complete except for the pulley side engine tin and the cats/muffler. The price was right, so I didn’t complain too much about it.

As for the conversion, there are two main sources to get the parts and knowledge we need to do the swap. Steve Timmons at InstantG's Home Page and Patrick Motorsports. Steve is the genius home-brewed engineer, and Patrick is the dialed in race shop. I’ve heard varying stories of working with each of them. Steve has the temperament of many engineer genius types, but will also customize and help you through any problem you have. Patrick is more corporate, but are used to bulletproof race car builds. They may not have as much time to spend with you, but their engineering is very sound.

A third option, and the one I'm going with, is to work with Jae Lee of Mirage International here in San Diego. He's sort of known as a suspension guy, but he's also the guy that built over 30 engines for Singer. (!) I've never seen a more meticulous engine builder or a more savvy Porsche engineer. I know with him at the helm, this thing will turn out amazing.

As it sits, I’m going to be getting a few pieces from Instant G, a few bits from Rothsport, and a few bits from Patrick. Here’s what my list looks like, as well as some questions I have about the install:

Wiring Harness Adapter
Flywheel
Throttle Cable
Single Pulley
Power Steering Block Off
Cold Air Intake
3.0/3.2 Engine Tins
3.0/3.2 Pulley/Engine Console
External Oil Cooler install.

Wiring Harness Adapter - They make a special adapter for the wiring harness, but it adapts so the 14 pin connector. I have to adapt it *again* to the 6 pin that the 69 911 comes with. (It’s unique to this model year) If you get one of these engines, make sure you check to see if the wiring harness has the updated version (There was an update from Porsche on it) installed. It should cost $100-$200 from your local dealer.

Flywheel - I’m told the really lightened flywheels have a tendency to stall the 3.6 (at least the 95) out, so it might be better to go mid-light (about 18 lbs) on it, vs. the 38 lb OEM version

Throttle Cable - Both instant G and Patrick make one. Most say the Patrick is MUCH less flimsy than the Instant G version, though there are lots of people that have used the IG version for many years with no problems. There’s also another option which is to modify a 964 clutch cable. All of them require trimming or reducing/removing the throttle stop under your accelerator pedal to achieve WOT.

Single Pulley - This converts the multiple pulley (with A/C) motor to a standard single pulley setup so if your belt breaks, your alternator light will properly light and tell you so.

Power Steering Block Off - Self explanatory, as the 69 didn’t have power steering equipped. Thank god.

Cold Air Intake - Replaces the giant airbox on the motor, and has a much cleaner (and racier) look.

Engine Tins and Console - The 3.6 engine crossbar is different than the 3.0/3.2. The move is to either modify the Original by welding some bits to it and relocating the holes (there are threads on this) or sourcing an earlier style version. I’m going to go with the Rennline RSR crossbar, and I still need to source the console/pulley cover. As for the tins, apparently you can use the 3.6 back and sides (it has the holes for the 2nd set of plug wires and use an earlier front engine tin. (I still need to source this in case you happen to have one)

Oil Cooler Install - The 3.6 does NOT have a built in Oil Cooler like the 3.0 and 3.2, so you have to make sure you plumb up external cooling. I have a Setrab (going in a fender) and an RX7 (going in the front) cooler that I’m going to run in series. I have a set of hard lines being delivered today, and I’ll need to modify from there. Usually you have to buy two hard lines for the 3.6. One of the old school lines that loops around the transmission, then another hardline to connect to the hardlines that run up to the front of the car. I’ll need to fabricate for this part, and I’m looking forward to getting a nice cool engine. I’ll also need to make sure my oil temp sensor matches the early gauge in my car.

That’s what I’ve got so far. Will keep you updated.

[rennch]

The Victim.



(We've come a long way!)

[rennch]

For those of you smarter than me...would this be an upgrade for this motor? Porsche 911 964 Carrera 2 4 Intake Manifold Set RSA RS America 3 6 Race 93 94 | eBay

[Sicklyscott]

Looking forward to this. I'd love to do a 3.6 on my "80, curious to see the difficulty level.

[midnight911]

i've long forgotten about this but BillV has a good point about the harness. it is a good time to swap the harness if it is original while the motor is out. the original is a bio-degradable harness and is on its way for a catastrophic failure. order the part with recall specific p/n 000.043.204.61 (regular p/n 993.607.016.15) so that you get it cheap.

i love the look of your car. beautiful.

[rennch]

After investigating the engine s/n, it was determined this was a late 94 U.S. Spec 964, engine, but has all of the 993 bits (plastic valve covers, 993 intake) there.

Here's the reference in case anyone needs it:





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[rennch]

Progress today. My lovely 3 liter came out for the last time. This is how a Porsche hot rod driveway should look on a weekend day:



Now I have an empty engine compartment. What do I keep and what can I get rid of? MSD? Anything on the left fuse panel?







I *really* want to dial in the engine wiring this time. Any suggestions?


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[Last911]

Megasquirt!!!

[timmy2]

For dialing in the engine wiring pull the through body harness and have me build you one that is similar to the '70 and up that eliminates all the right side firewall connections.
Then your conversion harness will be 14 pin plug and play.
May want to get a '70-'83 rear engine fuse panel for it.

[rennch]

Good idea Dennis.,


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[safe]

I stack my cars on top of each others!
Removed the engine for a new clutch and LSD yesterday.




The car on the top is my -69 that will recieve a 3.6 engine soon. I'm having some engine harness issues like you because of the 6-pin connectors. Keep us (me) updated about the progress there. If you got a working wire diagram for the converter please post!

[keitho64]

Need to follow this thread, looks great!!

[Lapkritis]

Looks like fun.

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by emptyo

Progress today. My lovely 3 liter came out for the last time. This is how a Porsche hot rod driveway should look on a weekend day:

This is going to be a fun thread to watch. What wheels and tires are shown in the above pic?

[group911@aol.co]

Easy enough to change to 993 MAF and computer or maybe a good 964 specific MAF. By the way, the intake runners are exactly the same. Take a shot of the back of it so we can see what air measuring device it has.

Originally Posted by emptyo

After investigating the engine s/n, it was determined this was a late 94 U.S. Spec 964, engine, but has all of the 993 bits (plastic valve covers, 993 intake) there.

Here's the reference in case anyone needs it:





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rennch]

My next task is to engineer brackets to mount a fender mounted Setrab, and a front mount RX7 cooler I have. Would love to see some of your engineering.


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[E@PatrickMotor]

Hello Michael

The car is looking great!
Erik Black

[Jim Dorociak]

There are a couple of other differences between late model 964 and the 95 993 engine - hydraulic lifters - and the heads are drilled 4 holes (exhaust ports) not two so it is easy to change the exhaust studs The 95 engine made more hp than the 964 engines. jim

[rennch]

Erik, I'm honored that was your first post!

[rennch]

I've put together a little pricing matrix so I can keep track of what I'm spending where. It's incomplete, but shows what each source is charging for similar items. If you see that I'm missing something, or know a price for something I've missed, please let me know.

Jae = Jae Lee from Mirage International. He typically fabricates all the parts necessary for the install, but that comes with a bespoke price as well.